Hi guys, I have a Rule question regarding an ARO from our game from yesterday. The Situation was as follows: My Opponent had an Hsien Haris with 2 Zhuyongs, with the Hsien as team leader. During one of his moves (it was his second short skill) his Hsien and one of his Zhuyong got in LOS of my Ryuken with Heavy Rocket Launcher. Because the Zhuyong had no cover and better rangebands my ARO was to shoot on the Zhuyong. Was this a legal ARO from me or do i have to attack the Team leader? Because it was his second short skill he couldn´t do nothing. Am I rigth with that or could he have reacted with a dodge or something else? But this is not the end, of course the Ryuken wiffed the shot and the Haris was unharmed. He activated his haris again and his Hsien declared a shoot on my Ryuken, my ARO was again to shoot on the Zhuyong i could see. Is this unopposed shot ok? Or did I cheat? Do I have to make a F2F with the leader or is it possible to shoot on the link Team member you choose. I guess similar Situations were here on the Forums more than once, but I couldn´t find it. The Wiki was not much help either. The only thing that came close to my question is this, but of course it is a very different Situation Spoiler: Similar but totally different situation in wiki Fireteam Example. Support/ Evasion Skill In the situation shown in the graphic, during the Active Turn, the Alguacil Fireteam has declared Move as the first Short Skill of the Order. The opponent has declared BS Attack as an ARO with his two Fusiliers, with the Fireteam only providing one ARO to each of them. Here, the Team Leader has no LoF to the Fusilier on the right, so he could only declare a Face to Face Roll of BS Attack against the Fusilier on the left. Now, the player must decide if his Team Leader declares BS Attack (Support) to face the Fusilier on the left, which would allow the other Fusilier to perform a BS Attack with a Normal Roll against one of his Alguaciles. Alternatively, he can declare Dodge (Evasion), so all Fireteam members could Dodge, performing two Face to Face Rolls (one for the Team Leader and one for the threatened Alguacil) against the BS Attacks of the Fusiliers. Despide having about 20 games so far my rule knowledge is mediocre at best, so you could really help us out to improve our game. Thanks guys.
Short answer - you're OK, it was a legal ARO. Longer answer in a minute. EDIT: Now for a longer answer. Rules for Fireteams state, that when you activate a Fireteam in Active turn - you activate ALL of the Fireteam members, not only the one with Link Leader marker (http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Fireteams_in_the_Active_Turn): During the Active Turn, all troopers who are part of a Fireteam activate with a single Regular Order from the Order Pool of their Combat Group. Furthermore, when a Fireteam performs an Order, ALL of the Fireteam members perform it (if capable), and ALL of them grant an ARO to the opponent. However, one opponent's trooper may target only one Fireteam member, if there are several that grant that trooper AROs: However, all members of a Fireteam must declare the same Order, declaring the same Short Skills of the Order or Entire Order as the Team Leader. Any Short Skills of the Order, or Entire Order, a Fireteam member cannot perform are considered an Idle. However, troopers will perform the Short Skills of that Order they are able to perform. In this situation, the other Fireteam members will perform their Order normally. A Fireteam grants a single ARO to each enemy trooper within LoF or ZoC. So, each enemy trooper will be able to declare a single ARO against only one of the Fireteam members who are in their LoF or ZoC. Thus, in your example, when your opponent activated his Fireteam (doesn't matter if it was a Haris, a Core, or even a Duo) - all of his troopers activated. Thus, when he moved two of Fireteam members within LoF of your Ryuuken HRL - Ryuuken had two available valid ARO targets - Hsien and Zuyong, and you were allowed to pick either of them as a target. It doesn't matter, if your opponent gave you AROs with his second short skill - that was, well, his mistake. But even in the next order, when he activated the Haris with Hsien as Link Leader, and your Ryuuken still had LoF to both Hsien and Zuyong - you were allowed to target Zuyong, despite him not beign a Link Leader. This is a downside of Active Fireteams - if you open up more than one of the team members to AROs - your opponent can easily target the not_Link Leader to roll some Normal rolls. And in situation like yours, when Link Leader tries to shoot the guy shooting his team member - it would be two Normal rolls, not a FtF.
you didn't cheat, you can shot to the other fireteam members if you see them, and if you see them first in the second movement, then thats your enemy's fault. That means usually no FtF rolls, but the HRL has a terminal template, which means he might "touch" more than one enemy. In those cases, if he don't fail his rolls, he can make FtF roll against the other troopers touched by the template
Just making sure your opponent didn't actually field a Hsien + Zuyong Haris, as Hsien can only Haris with Zhanying.
Also, yeah, what @Armihaul and @Knauf said. If you shot your HRL in a Blast mode (putting a Circular Template on the main target), and the blast also touched Hsien - your Ryuuken would shoot a Normal roll at the "Zuyong", but that roll result would be used as a FtF value against Hsien's shots. So Hsien would be able to save himself, but not "Zuyong". Same would happen, if you shot Hsien and touched "Zuyong" with the template - Hsien would FtF your roll, but if your roll was successful by itself (even if Hsien's rolls canceled it) - "Zuyong" would still get hit. And yes, if your opponent played Imperial Service - there are no Zuyongs in it, and Hsien may only form Haris with Zhanying Imperial Agents (and some other troop choices, but w/e). Also, remember, Fireteams are only allowed in Sectorial Armies, not in Vanilla (so a Core of Zuyongs is okay in Invincible Army list, but not okay in Yu Jing list).
Nope, that's it. Hsien can only form Fireteam with a Zhanying Haris. No other troop types and no other Fireteam types, not even other Hsien. ISS is an old sectorial by now and doesn't even have Wildcards. -- Just for the sake of clarity and curiosity; A Zuyong is an Invincible Army standard Heavy Infantry. If memory serves, name means roughly "tomb guard" while the Chinese characters on the emblem completes it to roughly "peerless tomb guard" - a close approximate of terracotta soldier A Zhanying is an Imperial Services up-geared Light Infantry. If memory serves, name means roughly "Eagle rank agent" with the mandatory reminder that birds of prey aren't necessarily regarded as the apex of birds in Chinese culture, which is why the elegant Crane agent is a much higher rank. With reservation for that this is second-hand information as I don't speak nor read Chinese myself.
Thank you guys for your reply. So I cheated kind of. I shot in template mode and clipped all three models. The Zhangying(It was in fact no Zuyong, I was just stupid) i shot got unconscious, the other Zhangying that was out of sight burned to death and the Hsien tanked the shot. So my cheating was that the Hsien wouldn´t be hit in the first place because it would be a F2F roll with him? On his normal roll he killed my Ryuken with a crit, so he was not hit if i understand you right. Thank you very much. We are only two people who play just for fun and trying new things, so most of the time we make mistakes and dont have a correction of it because we are bassically noobs. So i really want to avoid to play wrong, it is better for the fun :).
Exactly right, ordinarily the Hsien would've not had to make that ARM save, but remember that it's only cheating if it's intentional, this was an honest mistake and it sounded like a quite epic moment during the game as a result. Just remember that next time your opponent will be more careful and give you fewer freebies, so you need to be even more clever with the Ryuken placement ;)
Yeah it was hilarious as the trap sprung and my Ryuken wiffed his shot. I placed the Ryuken camo token as a fake "mine" right in ZOC of yuriko oda. So between "yeah he fell for it" and "are you serouis to fail the shot Ryuken" it was an "emotional" rollercoaster on both sides, it was just great. So for the future we know it better. Thank you all, you were a great help.
Yeah, I dun goof'd here. I'm maining White Banner, and I remembered that Adil was a Wildcard. Apparently not in ISS.
Oda should have had 2 Camo Markers within 8" or you should have told your opponent that "Oda still has 3 Mines left" when you deployed her. This makes it clear that one of the 2 Camo markers is not one of Oda's Mines, which makes the surprise harder to achieve.
Ok I didn´t knew that either. Do i have to tell my opponent the amount of ammunition that is left when i tell him about my deployment? I will keep that in mind for future games. This is a little bit more restrictive but opens up more possibilities. Thank you.
Opinions vary on exactly how much you have to draw your opponent's attention to it. I agree with @inane.imp that you should explicitly draw their attention to anything unusual. So whenever they first see a minelayer, I will explicitly point out whether or not it's missing any mines. Some people play that they only have to tell their opponent if asked, and will not proactively mention the number of mines (or sometimes even that the unit has the minelayer skill), hoping that the opponent won't think to ask. Although either approach is arguably permitted by the rules, proactive disclosure is the better way to play. As new players, I strongly encourage you and your opponent to adopt it for a better strategic experience. Now on the other hand, some factions have minelayers that also have camo. So you put down two camo tokens and your opponent has no way of knowing whether they're a minelayer and mine, or two separate camo units. There are lots of totally legitimate feints you can do in that case, since the existence of the minelayer is legitimately hidden by the camo state.
Note that, however you fall on the spectrum of having to disclose information during deployment, you are 100% obligated to tell your opponent everything about your troop that isn't still private information when it comes out of camo... including the fact that it has minelayer and how many mines it has left.
You are 100% obligated to tell your opponent during deploying, as well as when a marker gets revealed. My emphasis: 'You must share Open Information about your Army List while you deploy your models during the Deployment Phase, and also any time your opponent asks during the game.'
