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Antipodes and Handler - BS Attack

Discussion in 'Rules' started by RobertShepherd, Mar 23, 2021.

  1. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    When an Antipode Assault Pack handler activates and declares BS Attack (for example, to fire her smoke grenade launcher) do the antipodes also declare BS attack, or are they allowed to declare an idle?

    This is important because if they're forced to declare BS attack, they'll break their camouflaged states when the handler declares the attack. By comparison, idle does not break the camo state.

    The peripheral rules state:
    • If any of the game elements (Controller or Peripheral) does not meet the Requirements of a Skill of the Order declared by the Controller and Peripherals, then they perform an Idle instead of such Skill, while the other may act normally.

    My reading of this rule is that it allows the antipodes to declare idle rather than BS attack because the player knows they do not meet the requirement to declare BS attack (they don't have guns!), meaning the antipodes are not forced to reveal.

    In particular, I'm inclined to think the rule should be read this way because if this is only meant to say 'if a peripheral declares a skill they don't meet the requirements for, at the resolution stage of the order they are determined to idle instead' (i.e. rather than letting them perform the idle from declaration onwards) then there would not need to be a rule because that's how skills work normally.

    Thoughts? Must antipodes de-camo when their controller fires a smoke grenade?
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Yes, if the controller shoots it reveals the Peripherals.

    Remember that Idle now cancels marker states.
     
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  3. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Are you sure about this - I'm talking about declaring Idle as a short movement skill, not how the last dot point of the skill refers to not meeting requirements.
     
    #3 RobertShepherd, Mar 23, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2021
  4. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Specifically I assume you're referring to this:

    In the Resolution Step of the Order, if a Trooper is found to have not met the Requirements of a declared Skill, they instead perform an Idle. In this situation:
    • The ammunition of Disposable weapons or pieces of Equipment is spent.
    • If the Trooper is in Marker form, it is revealed, and its Model is placed where the Marker was.

    I'm asking if antipodes can declare an idle during the relevant step in the order phase while the controller declares a BS Attack - declaring an idle in this situation has no requirements and doesn't trigger the camo cancellation dot point.

    Now, 'can antipodes declare idle while the controller declares BS attack' might be a long bow to draw but I still wanted to be sure before I give a local ariadnan false hope for their poor doggos.
     
  5. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Morlock trainer
    Warcor

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    They can. But then the controller had to declare an Idle as well. The 2nd bullet point of the peripheral rule states (at least I think that is stated here since this sentence, IMO, lacks any clear wording):
     
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  6. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Yeah, and there are references in the Peripheral rules that conflate declaring and performing the same skills as sort of the same.

    Frankly I'm just drawing a really long bow in hopes of helping out a local antipode player who's struggling under the current peripheral (control) rules.
     
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  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    I don't see any way they can Declare different skills, that goes against every form of multiple activation in the game.

    You probably want to wait until the Antipodes are revealed before using smoke from the controller, or use one of Ariadna's many other superior smoke throwers.
     
  8. spears

    spears Well-Known Member

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    Im slightly hazy on this due to the below peripheral stunned ruling.
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/peripheral-and-stun.38097/

    Stunned clearly prevents declaration not just execution of attacks.
    "Troopers in this state cannot declare Attacks."

    So either the controller is declaring idle, or the wording of stunned seems wrong and it should just prevent executing attacks. (I presume this also effects including a stunned model in a co-ordinated order attack)
     
  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    can you link where that cancellation for idling is?

    I can't find it.
     
  10. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    https://infinitythewiki.com/Idle

    In the Resolution Step of the Order, if a Trooper is found to have not met the Requirements of a declared Skill, they instead perform an Idle. In this situation:
    The ammunition of Disposable weapons or pieces of Equipment is spent.
    If the Trooper is in Marker form, it is revealed, and its Model is placed where the Marker was.
     
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    An obvious spot to look for it and yet I missed this by searching for it under cancellation clauses where it isn't found. @ijw seems like an oversight.
     
  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    The whole "prevent declaration" thing basically goes out the way in group activations.

    In group activations they treat the declaration of a skill which the declaring trooper is not permitted to declare as being resolved as an Idle.

    AROing vs the Stealthed trooper in a group activation. The FAQ resolves it as an invalid declaration (one that gets resolved as an Idle) rather than an illegal declaration (one that can't be made). The same logic is inherent in Peripherals.

    Honestly, this would be simpler if it was explicitly:
    1. Declare what you wilt, if it's not permitted, invalid or doesn't meet the Restrictions then it's an Idle.
    2. For Group activations you make one skill declaration for all activated models.

    It doesn't solve @RobertShepherd issue, but it would make everything consistent. But.. That's not the direction CB went.
     
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Technically it's unnecessary, declaring the BS Attack cancels the Camo State. That clause is basically "even if you perform an Idle there is no take baksies and you lose the state". It's redundant but is there almost specifically to stop the argument @RobertShepherd is making here.
     
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  14. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    As far as I can tell, the answer to the original post is simple and straight forward.

    The rules say (color added for emphasis):

    • If any of the game elements (Controller or Peripheral) does not meet the Requirements of a Skill of the Order declared by the Controller and Peripherals, then they perform an Idle instead of such Skill, while the other may act normally.
    while one of the earlier bullet points is:
    • Peripherals are always activated with the same Order as their Controller, executing the same Short Skills of the Order, or Entire Order, although they are not required to have the same target.
    The question is "Does this mean that the Antipodes -declare- Idle?" And the answer to that is "No." The antipodes and their controller declare the same skill, and end up -performing- Idle.

    What's the entire purpose of that bullet point? Explaining what happens if the game elements involved have declared a skill they can't perform. If a person doesn't like that as "This is the permission you're given to declare skills that you don't meet the requirements for", that's pretty much at odds with how CB's ended up writing the rules for group skill declarations.
     
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  15. KGG

    KGG Well-Known Member

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    I'm still learning the rules so might have missed something important, is it possible to keep two of the antipodes in camo state by using one order to move-move the units in a way that the spearhead is just out of coherency. This will put the other two antipodes in disconnected state. Then next order, use short-skill BS-attack to launch smoke with the controller (keeping spearhead the same). Spearhead will idle, losing camouflage, other two antipodes can't perform any orders at all (and will stay in camo state?). Then second short skill move the spearhead so that it is back in coherency with the other two antipodes, cancelling their disconnected state. I'm not sure how all of the rules interact when it gets this complex, or if its any more order efficient than just re-entering camo state in a later order.
     
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  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Seems legit.

    Probably easier to just recamo.
     
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  17. CrazyNomad

    CrazyNomad New Member

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    I read it the following, which ist different to most other answers.

    If the handler declares an order, the other peripherals can't perform, they use an Idle instead. This ist not resolved at the end of the order execution because they don't try to use that skill. Since they to Idle on purpuse, they are not revealed.
    I guess the intention of the last bullet in the Idle Skill is that Units get revealed If they try to so something.
     
  18. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Idle explicitly states it removes camo. So those dogs lose their camo if their owner wants smoke.
     
  19. CrazyNomad

    CrazyNomad New Member

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    But as I read the rule, the revealing ist only when at the conclusion the requirements are not met and because of this, the unit performs Idle.

    Otherwise if I have a infiltrating camo Unit that idles as the first Order can already be target, because the Idle reveals it? If the camo unit moves and decides to Idle for the second Part, it is not revealed either?

    Or are you insisting, that the antipodes perform a BS Attack as well (which they might not even be able to declares without Log). And therefore the Idle Kicks in at Resolution?
     
  20. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    In this case its the last one. The antipodes have to declare the same skill as the controller (bs attack). They clearly don't have any legal targets (no guns and all). This means they will perform the idle action but declared the bs attack action. Both of which is cause to break camo.

    And for the other question, idle doesn't break camo unless idle was caused by declaring something else and being forced to idle.
     
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