An argument FOR ISS

I think the following is a relevant comment that's come up when I've seen people other people discuss ISS in the current meta that's playing out.

Consider the Avatar, probably one of the peak TAGs in the game right now. You can build lists that comfortably run 14 orders through the TAG in N4.

ISS don't have the firepower to take the Avatar in a head on fight, with a severe lack of high power AP weaponry that carries either visors or a link+BS score to tackle it. You can't even attempt to burn off the ODD anymore. Pretty much the only option is trying to get the Su Jian within 8" if you have the shotgun loadout, the Spitfire basically can't touch the Avatar in cover.

ISS don't have the hacking prowess to bully the Avatar with infowar.

ISS don't have the skirmishers or marker states to try and bypass the Avatar.

ISS don't have the ability to spam orders anymore. You can't attempt to outmaneuver the Avatar by utilising kuang shi to fuel attack pieces further than the Avatar, in fact the Avatar now outperforms ISS in this department able to more efficiently allocate the potential 15 orders ISS could have due to their total lack of NCO and relative lack of TacAw (fairly sure it's only found on a single pheasant profile which is as questionable as ever with shit links and weird statlines).

So where does that leave ISS? Their strengths of order spam/efficiency were nerfed heavily and they've aged badly. ISS used to sport one of the first versions of an "efficient" mixed link with light infantry buddying a HI beatstick with Celestial Guard buddying the Crane. Now we have Alguaciles buddying ODD Vostoks which hit everything on 18s while inflicting an extra -6 MOD for an 80ish point core link, the Crane looks like fucking hot garbage compared to that. The arms race has evolved, power has crept, and CB have failed to keep ISS up to speed while simultaneously bashing the crap out of them with the nerf bat.

 

Yes and no.

Are they a "potential" counter? Yes. Monofilament can counter a big heavy thing.

Are they particularly cost efficient, order efficient, and/or reliably able to execute the job?



Put it this way it doesn't scare a TAG the same way the thought of Oniwaban lurking somewhere on the table does, or a Speculo possibly being held back yet to deploy.

 

Your list with export function (its available now for N4)
ISS remotes done well
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GROUP 1 7 4
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13)
XI ZHUANG Combi Rifle, Light Flamethrower(+1B), Flash Pulse, Madtraps / Pistol, CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 21)
CRANE AGENT (X Visor) Spitfire, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49)

GROUP 2 8
SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31)
YUDBOT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
SÙ-JIÀN Heavy Shotgun(+1B), Panzerfaust / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 50)
PANGGULING (EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15)
DAKINI Tacbot Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 21)
DAKINI Tacbot MULTI Sniper Rifle / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 20)
DEVA (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
DEVA (Lieutenant, Triangulated Fire, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)

5 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

 

The Su Jian seems to be one of the best options in the game for outmaneuvering an opponent and denying them cover, I'm surprised you'd even try taking on an Avatar with Cover using one. The Wu Ming E/M GL in a Haris or bigger also looks promising as an anti-Avatar choice if you can flank it, E/M is disgustingly strong against armoured units in N4.

 

Wuming e/m gl is a pretty big reason to play ISS

it is present in Ikari as well but I think ISS provides easily as much support to the core and you have access to decent wildcards

 

It won't hold against anything serious. You're better off taking a TR bot if you want a REM on ARO and repair it every turn just to be annoying.

 

I'm finding it harder to outflank high ARM TAGs these days if you don't have AP weaponry running around they're very likely to seek partial cover rather than total cover which often means standing relatively exposed behind a car or low wall or some other smaller obstacle that grants a large view arc. A TAG at ARM12 is shrugging regular HMGs off on rolls of 4+, for them it's more important to stop you from moving to cut off their cover than it is to prevent LOF from being obtained in the first place. If you have an AP weapon that has a decent burst then they'll hide, but ISS lacks those AP guns for the most part.

The Wu Ming GL profile is probably the highlight of the sectorial at the moment, but it's not an answer all weapon. Spec Fired it's hitting on 10s and that requires you to shell out for an expensive core link, that's still a bit of a crapshoot at times. I wouldn't classify it as a plan A weapon for stopping problematic TAGs.

 

Generally speaking I think the Wu Ming grenade launcher is a good reason to play, yes, but I think neither ISS nor Ikari provides much incentive to do so considering how much more flexible Ikari is when basing off of Keisotsu. I haven't spent an extensive amount of time trying to make Ikari work so can't compare the factions, but Wu Ming lists quickly run out of points before you can balance up the short range with the long range and also has an annoying tendency to be short on orders.

As for the list at hand, it looks like a fairly basic ISS list, though split in a way that I personally do not like.

Dealing with an Avatar is very possible in ISS until Combined players start realizing they have a very potent MSV2 sniper in the Yaogat. Most Combined players around here, at least, don't seem to value that particular piece of tech as much, so smoking an Avatar out and then locking it with a Kuang Shi is very possible - this will let Adil get in to close combat without being KoDali:ed at which point it's a matter of orders; got orders left and the Avatar is toast.

 

I posted the list in the OP without realizing that it was exactly what zapp had done.

 

I agree. And now you can have more Zhanying to bring the cost down.

ZHÀNYING Missile Launcher, Chain-colt / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (1.5 | 23)
ZHÀNYING (Hacker, Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 25)
ZHÀNYING (Sensor, Triangulated Fire, Minelayer) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Madtraps / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 23)
WÚ MÍNG Boarding Shotgun ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31)
WÚ MÍNG MULTI Rifle, Grenade Launcher, E/M Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 35)

2 SWC | 137 Points

Why does everyone keep only thinking of the speculative shot with a grenade launcher? It's still a great direct shot weapon on a great troop. To me doing that is only when I need to. I'd rather be shooting 2 of them with the +3 from the team.

 

I've been trying to fit this Haris into a competent ISS list simply because I love how self-reliant it seems:

Big boi Haris
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3
HSIEN MULTI Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 53)
CRANE AGENT (Hacker, Hacking Device, Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0.5 | 46)
ZHÀNYING (Sensor, Triangulated Fire, Minelayer) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Madtraps / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 23)

0.5 SWC | 122 Points

Open in Infinity Army

Rest of the list could be something like this, but IDK. I'm mainly interested in that sexy (and expensive) Haris team


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GROUP 1 10 4
HSIEN (Lieutenant) MULTI Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (+1 | 53)
CRANE AGENT (Hacker, Hacking Device, Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0.5 | 46)
ZHÀNYING (Sensor, Triangulated Fire, Minelayer) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Madtraps / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 23)
XI ZHUANG Combi Rifle, Light Flamethrower(+1B), Flash Pulse, Madtraps / Pistol, CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 21)
SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16)
CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)

GROUP 2 5
NINJA (Hacker, Hacking Device) Submachine Gun ( ) / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0.5 | 35)
MAJOR LUNAH VIRAL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 29)
KǍNRÈN (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt ( ) / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0.5 | 28)
PANGGULING (Deactivator, Repeater) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 8)
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)

5 SWC | 299 Points

Open in Infinity Army

 

Problem with that Haris is that it's almost half your points for 5 wounds and 3 orders that doesn't threaten much beyond 24" and might have trouble getting out of the DZ on its own.

Dropping the Crane hacker down to a Zhanying saves you 21 points and nets you 6th sense.

If I had to take a Crane with a link like that, I'd opt for one that comes with an X-visor. But again, it's a huge amount of points, we don't have the efficiency we used to, and we have to rely on more moving parts on top of it.

 

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I'd run that against a heavy tag list. They're going to have to spend a ton of time dismantling all of those snipers to be able to get a tag into position. The same applies for lists with lots of camo.

 

Few things here:

First, your hyper-aggressive close-range fireteam is stuck in their own group with 3 regular orders and one irregular order. They won't be able to do anything of value. You need to switch them into group one, preferably with the Baos. Otherwise, you'll be pretty useuless.

Second, Hsien group isn't even a legal haris, since you still need one Zhanying to make it a legal Zhanying haris. In addition to that, your Bao Troopers also want to be in a haris to make their snipers threatening, but this also ends up conflicting with your Hsien and friends, since you can't have more than one haris, and neither option has the potential to form a core to make a pseudo-haris.

With no visual modifiers, most TAGs will be able to pretty easily slice the pie against those Bao to take them out one by one with little resistance. They'll be shooting mostly with B4 BS14+ against B2 BS12 at best (which also crumples into dust the moment a single member of the team goes down). If I was running a TAG heavy list against this, I'd be pretty ecstatic.

 

Because their odds tend to suck shit thanks to low natural burst and dodgy rangebands. Two dice on 13s (worse if the opponent has mimetism) tends to mean you lose F2F rolls. Wanna shoot a bog standard TAG? Ok, 2 dice on 13s vs 1 dice on 14s in return. That's a good way to eat an explosive HMG round to the face and die. Wanna shoot the Avatar or something else mimetic? Might as well bend over and spread your cheeks now.

They need a higher burst to offset not having positive range bands in direct conflict.