All details - declare attack position before moving?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N4 Rules' started by Mahtamori, Mar 29, 2021.

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  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    So, the rules say I need to declare all details of a skill, and for this question I'd like to focus on skills that are not BS Attack using regular BS Weapons. I'll also focus specifically on the <skill> + move declaration order since that's the most messy one.

    When I declare a skill do I need to also declare where this skill will be performed along the future potential movement?

    Example questions;
    1. A Crocman declares Oblivion targeting a Shang-Ji and a Zuyong. Does the Crocman also need to declare which position this burst will be split from prior to moving?
    2. A Heckler declares BS Attack using a Jammer versus a Shasvasti Nox. Since a Jammer doesn't need LOF, the Heckler should be able to BS Attack - Move, does the Heckler need to declare what position it'll shoot from as part of the BS Attack declaration.
    3. Zuleyka declares CC Attack before moving. Would the player need to indicate where Zuleyka attacks from, potentially invalidating the attack(s) if incapable of getting to exactly that position? What if she splits burst between two Rokots, does that change things?
    4. What about skills without target but that still measure like Reset or Dodge?
    5. Do you need to specify if you're using a Repeater and if so where that Repeater is during the skill?

    My assumption is this: Yes, you need to declare where you perform the skills regardless of burst if the skill has a target. For skills like Dodge this is not necessary. And you need to specify where the Repeater you use is during the skill as well (otherwise synched/coordinated repeaters become huge fat paintbrushes of hacking)
     
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  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The plot thickens lol.
     
  3. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    If I recall correctly we got a ruling that a trooper declaring the Place Deployable skill to drop a mine in ARO did not need to specify the exact location of the mine at declaration so as to not allow the declaration to be made invalid by a subsequent move by the enemy trooper (the old mine cancelling trick from N3, if you remember that one).

    We also know that you can't declare BS Attack + Move to force your opponent to ARO you while you're in cover, although this is written in the FAQ as a sort of awkward exception ('you have to declare all details except the target's position').
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The ruling we got was that if a trooper moved to block the declared position, you could reposition it.

    These situations are somewhat different, however, as they're dealing with target spots. I'm asking about the origin spot.
     
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  5. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Bad question, because the text for the Dodge skill specifies explicitly when the movement is declared and executed. All you declare for Dodge when you declare the skill is Dodge.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm not talking about the movement.
     
  7. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Overall I think it's reasonable to say that the location from which you are declaring a skill is a relevant detail that should be declared when you declare the skill, so yes - the strictly correct example in the zuleklya case is 'CC attack, using her EXP CCW, from this position here [nominate relevant position]' with the expectation that zuleklya will then move into that location.

    That said, does the game actually describe what happens when a declared detail isn't met? For example, if a player said "I'm going to shoot you with my MULTI Rifle, firing three burst with DA Ammo", how would you resolve that? Would you demand that the skill become an idle (because they need to shot either B1 DA or B3 AP or Shock)? Or would you work with your opponent to correct the declaration so the order can be resolved?
     
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  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    For 1, 4, and 5, I'm not sure the skill gets performed from a specific position at all. I would have thought that:
    - The skill's Requirement is that the target be inside the trooper's ZoC (or hacking area).
    - Because of the All At Once principle, if the trooper moves during the order, its ZoC includes the area up to 8" away from its whole movement path.
    - So the trooper can target anyone in that ZoC, potentially splitting hacking burst between two targets even if there's no single point during its movement at which both targets were in its hacking area.

    I would contrast ZoC skills with BS Attack, which requires a shot from a specific point in order to measure the range for MOD purposes. The BS Attack skill specifically states that "All shots must be declared from the same point." Hacking Skills, Reset, and Dodge have no similar language requiring declaration from any particular point.

    I think the question was asked a few months ago in relation to hacking - was it answered?

    Similarly, for 3, the CC Attack skill also lacks any language saying it has to be declared or performed from a particular point. The Requirement is just to be in s2s contact, which due to the All At Once principle can happen at any point in the order.

    2 is the tough one since I think Jammer technically uses the BS Attack skill. Jammers are weird.
     
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  9. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Ah, that's an interesting note about how BS attack alone includes specific language about the attack location (rather than just the target location) being a relevant detail.
     
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  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Even if you have to declare which Repeater you use at declaration (which is tenuous as its based on extrapolating from an FAQ that doesn't answer this precise question*) I certainly don't think you need to declare the position of the Repeater you use: this isn't actually a decision that's necessary for the skill to function, the check is whether or not the target is in your Hacking Area, the Hacking Area is the ZOC or your Repeaters and the Repeater is considered to occupy all positions it moved through during the order. Yes this means that mobile Repeaters are broad brushes or Hacking Area.

    The other fun one is: can you declare Place Deployable + Move and declare a location for the Deployable in S2S with a position you will occupy during Step 3?

    * Prior to the FAQ I argued that you never needed to specify what Repeater you used. The FAQ added a requirement to determine between two possible paths, which arguably is a decision but plausibly isn't - it's rather just as subordinate element of "determing MODs".
     
    #10 inane.imp, Mar 29, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
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