As we all know, in Infinity, we see infantry and TAG level combat. Apart from Remotes and Bikers, we don't really see much else. We know there's other vehicles out there, there are even some rudimentary rules referencing (presumably civilian) vehicles. So, time to speculate, draw wild conclusions, and make poorly educated guesses! Aircraft The AD troops arrive somehow, via plane, helicopter, or some other method, cargo and utility. And the fact is, in a bigger fight, airpower can be a vital asset. Fighters, bombers, recon, strike and close support airframes logically exist. Not everything can be a spaceship so atmospheric craft, or things more designed for low-orbit like shuttles or dropships are likely to be common. We have seen Antenociti's examples of such things in terms of transports and terrain: The Roc, Superhawk, Azure Dragon, and City Hopper, used by Haqqislam, likely PanO, YuJing, and Generic/Civvie respectively. Ariadna also has a helicopter/vtol called the Black Eagle. I speculate that PanO at least uses drone based combat aircraft. Our own drone tech is well able to provide some of these roles, though nowhere near as effective as the directly piloted versions in some missions. Yu-Jing may also use them, but could also make some use of piloted frames for simplicity. YuJing's fighter-bombers are referenced in a fight for air supremacy in Japan during the Uprising, and Steel Wall by PanO was meant to prevent air supremacy by the State Empire, but details are otherwise sparse. The JSA may have a few captured Yu-Jing assets plus whatever remaining stuff they may have had issued to them as part of the State Empire but are likely to not have a significant air power capability post-uprising - unless PanO has cheaper export stuff to sell them. Defence and air defence against Yujing threats in the sky is likely the Japanese Secessionist Air Force priority. Haqqislam's air assets may want to rely on easier maintenance and cheap to replace parts - sandy conditions reduce lifespan of engines and propellers/rotors afaik so they'll want things that are cheaper and easier to maintain away from bigger landing strips and pads. The Roc certainly looks like it's designed to last a while, possibly 39 millennia... *cough cough*. Nomads meanwhile may use just about anything they can grab, but may be using more dropship/low orbit capable things given their spacey nature, and might not have much in the way of an airforce as much as it is a space fighter force capable of atmo ops. I expect Ariadna's aviation to maybe barely be at our own levels or maybe even lower. The small size of Ariadna will have a knock-on effect - air power is expensive to maintain, meaning lower numbers for any combat craft, and likely mean things might be multirole. The RPG notes they do have many helicopters and dropships, and that their fighters are outclassed, but several squadrons of bombers and attack aircraft are maintained. USAriadnan designs are apparently simple and easy to maintain too. Seacraft/Watercraft We know there's sea shenangians afoot by PanO and YuJing, but its likely the seas aren't a vital route any more. That said, they're still one of the easiest transport routes so some surface vessels are likely in use by militaries. The seas also mean access to resources, fossil fuels and minerals on the seabeds. That likely means decent patrol capabilities, maybe destroyers and light aircraft carriers at most: I doubt ships as large as a modern supercarrier would be needed, especially if VTOL aircraft are more common. Submarines are likely also employed, for both commercial and military purposes. We know Ariadna has Ekranoplans, and apparently Hovercraft are used on Dawn as well. Given some of the advantages of hovercraft and WIGs, higher tech versions may be used by other powers, but those do have some drawbacks compared to traditional ships. Nomads probably make little use of them, and Haqqislam's relative isolation on their main planet means their sea navy might be little more than patrol vessels. Minecraft AFVs The Tank may have been replaced by the TAG in most militaries. Ariadna does have tanks, referenced in the RPG, but these may be pretty simple designs - I doubt they're a whole lot better than modern tanks, their main advantages being Tesium construction and rounds. They also probably won't be much in number, and since TAGs aren't huge mecha, the game is on the other foot - it's the TAG that has the lower profile. That said, Ariadnan Tanks probably aren't easily dismissed, or destroyed. However, APCs, IFVs, self-propelled artillery et all likely see use. True, TAGs can cover the role of self-propelled artillery to some degree, but truck or tracked based howitzers, missiles, and rockets would still be viable. There may be a weapon out there to surpass Metal Gear.... but technically that already does exist unless you mean Rex since even discarding the nonsense about the railgun being "stealth", it has advantages over existing missile launch systems. Maybe some lighter-armoured mobile gun systems exist, not armoured enough to be a tank, but still carrying a big gun and some missiles to be a TAG/Tank killer. Amphibious vehicles likely see use on Dawn and by Varuna. Even in Infinity's future setting it's likely wheeled and smaller vehicles will be preferred in urban operations while tracks will have the slight advantage cross country. Only the Nomads would lack such assets in any numbers: Any Nomad vehicles are likely lighter and rely on speed and firepower, TAGs are almost certainly the biggest Nomad combat vehicles employed consistently. Maybe they'll have a handful of older surplus weapons in some places, but Nomad ground warfare probably doesn't see much mechanisation. Anyone else have any thoughts or things to point me at to disprove/prove any of the guesses and assumptions I've been making?
Aircraft: PanO definitely uses drones for most of their combat aircraft. I suspect that they use manned transports, though. You need to train pilots somehow, after all, and it's not like you can take advantage of the higher g-capability of a drone if there's a bunch of people onboard as cargo. Yu Jing probably uses drones for their combat aircraft, manned transports, same reasons as PanO. Planes have a lot more space for a Remote Presence system than even a TAG does. JSA probably started out with YJ close air support aircraft, not many fighters (kinda like the USMC's list of aircraft). But now they're stuck with the Infinity equivalent of F5s, not even F16s. Probably 2 generations behind whatever PanO is flying, or at best flying combat versions of PanO's fast-jet trainer. I honestly would expect most of Ariadna's combat aircraft (fighters and bombers, I mean) to be military surplus from Haqq (or milsurp from whoever is supplying Haqq if it's not local production). I mean, Ariadna was fighting the equivalent of an insurgency. You don't need fast jets to fight an insurgency, helicopters and slow prop planes will do just fine. And for the exploration/colonizing mission, you have helicopters and fixed-wing drones, plus maybe C130-type light airlifters, no fighters or bombers. Maybe not even helicopter gunships! You don't want to know what a Huey's engine looks like after flying through the Mt St Helens eruption. It's hideous. So you'd better believe that Haqq invests heavily in anything and everything that keeps sand out of the engines! I think the Nomads would use atmosphere-only drone fighter-bombers launched out of a dropship, rather than building lots of re-entry-capable fighter-bombers. It's much cheaper. Seacraft: Probably the usual mix of surface ships, though I'd expect a few more trimaran types (like the LCS-2 class) and surface effect ships like the Scandahooligan fast attack craft. Regardless of faction, I would expect most ships to be built on-planet. Modern ships are just too damn big to build elsewhere and starlift someplace. Even WW2 submarines were 1500 tons! So this would actually make Ariadna's ocean the most difficult to have other navies interfering, just because there aren't supposed to be any PanO or YJ bases big enough to have shipyards. Ekranoplans (Wing In Ground Effect) and hovercraft are semi-competitor technologies. Big ekranoplans are all flying boats, which are probably too heavy to come ashore except on the toughest reinforced concrete runways. Hovercraft have a problem climbing up steep beaches or rocky beaches. IRL, the French Navy has a surface effect (or something similar) landing craft. It's just as fast as a US Navy LCAC hovercraft, and hauls 1.5x as much load twice as far. The only advantage the LCAC has over the EDAR is that an LCAC can go over the beach, while an EDAR only goes up to the beach. But the EDAR is vastly cheaper to build and operate, and doesn't need 4x aircraft engines, either (just two locomotive-scale diesels). Ekranoplans can have a huge cargo capacity for their size. The 'Caspian Sea Monster' could carry 300 tons of cargo, and the C130-sized A-90 Orlyonok carried 1.5x the cargo of said C130s, 30 tons instead of 20, with 3/4s the horsepower. Ground Vehicles: It's a sure bet that everyone uses some ground vehicles (aside from TAGs). Modern hybrid or diesel-electric propulsion can make an 8-wheeled truck with the horsepower of a main battle tank. N1/N2 art for the Haqq Halqa and Lugize shows that big APC to be wheeled, not tracked. Wheels are getting to be nearly the off-road performance of tracks. Another scifi setting made a good argument for combat vehicles with 'rollagons' (trackball wheels), since rollagons can move in any direction, at any speed. Your tank is rolling sideways at 150kph! (Antenociti had licensed some designs to make as 3d models, but I'm not sure what happened to those, see also the weird things from Tank Police). The funny thing is that Tanks have much the same problem as naval ships: They're impractical to starlift between planets, or even airlift on one planet. So you need more, lots more of them, just to have any tanks at all at a troublespot. Worse, they are completely impossible to transport covertly. This means that your frenemies in the Human Sphere have months of warning as you move tanks around (it took the US 6 months to get our tanks from the US to Saudi Arabia in 1991, and it was just as slow in 2003). A C-17 'Mighty Mouse' can only haul 77-80 tons of cargo, that's 1x Abrams-weight tank or not quite 2x Leopard 1s. A C-5 Galaxy can haul 130 tons, so 2x not-quite-Abrams tanks or 4x Leopard 1s. TAGs are small enough that you could hide one inside a FastPanda food truck or a UPS panel van, and light enough (~2tons each) that you could stuff an entire platoon including their maintenance support workshop into a C130-sized airplane, or a company of TAGs into a C17-sized plane.
Wonder how much of that might have been influenced by the HMMWV, Stryker and Marine LAVs rolling around in Iraq around about N1/N2 release times? And of course, Spain's own army uses 6-wheel APCs and an 8-wheeler Tank Destroyer. The array of esoteric, experimental, and just plain funky tech to literally reinvent the wheel could be a goldmine of amusement. Screw-propelled vehicles on Svalarheima for instance.
They don't look very fast (maybe they don't go above 30mph) and appear to require an axle, yet.... weeeeee!
One of the tidbits we got from Uprising is that, whatever they look like or do, the aircraft discussed seem to have surprisingly short operational ranges... Yu Jing, controlling China and Korea, establishes forward airfields on the Japanese archipelago, the disruption of which hampers air operations. Likewise, on Noviy Cimmeria PanO's Steel Wall uses bases on the island itself, and Yu Jing hitting these seems to threaten the entirety of air support for the secessionists (saved by that stroke of luck, the PANOC-23 base a stone's throw away, just waiting to be reactivated). Given the ranges of present-day aircraft and drones, it seemed (to me, admittedly not an expert in military aviation) that the ranges assumed in the narrative were more 'helicopter'-esque than airplane? Not impossible the Sphere's air support craft are short ranged/have limited fuel supplies, but that probably points to either the controllers of drones needing to be nearby, or the craft not carrying enough ordnance for sustained engagement, needing bases nearby to rearm quickly so their time out of action is kept to a minimum?
The F-35's combat radius is 770-870 miles, a bit under 1,500 kilometres. That means it can lift off from Tokyo and strike any target in the Japanese home islands, as well as all of Korea, significant parts of the Chinese coast, and I think even some parts of Russia. Predator drones have shorter ranges, but longer loiter times and can be controlled from quite some range away - IIRC up to 7,000 miles. What being closer means, though, is faster flight times and longer loiter. The plane flying 700 miles has only 70-140 more miles of flight, which when flying at 200mph or so, doesn't mean a whole lot of time left to fly around before you have to RTB. On the other hand, if you only flew 100-200 mph you've got all that extra fuel to get back, meaning you can hang around a lot longer. It also means backup arrives sooner if you need it.
It's more about how long it takes to get to the target, drop bombs, and get back. It's one of the reasons that the Marines use Harriers, because they can operate at rough fields maybe 100 miles behind the line. Then you can take off, hit the target in a few minutes, then reload and be back over the target in ~15 minutes (or however fast your reloading crews can work).
If I'm remembering correctly (I think the Paradisio campaign book) Pan-O use a mixture of drones and live pilot for combat craft, drones are cheaper and more numerous Human ones have the discretion and "killer instinct". Most probably follow the same model, Haqq maybe putting more emphasis on living pilots Nomads probably being the most remote heavy per-capita.
larger vehicles will never be a part of Infinity and that does not even make the game look unrealistic imho. What i find strangely absent is small flying drones for surveillance and electronic support platform.
Certainly not at the current scale - A 1/48th modern tank is about 6 inches long excluding the gun. Even the Maghariba Guard isn't quite that large As for drones, it is an odd one. We have man-portable drones today, we have camera units that can be fired from mortars and grenade launchers to get a birds-eye view (Mostly under development though), and there's a drone with the Warcor carrying his camera. The newest one has a fidget spinner thing that is presumably a tiny drone too. A little camera drone for Forward Observers could be quite interesting.
At Infinity ranges, things like an Abrams are big targets. They don't have enough guns pointed in enough directions (nor do they currently have anywhere near enough sensors to give anything like infantry situational awareness). I think they're actually so common that shooting one down is useless, there are 5 flying around to take it's place, and 10+ more in troops belt-pouches. That and we're also talking about things like smart dust which is only stoppable with EM weapons or fire, coupled to aerostats flying at 15000+ft (out of rifle and most missile ranges).
I think of PanO and Yujing Aircraft as remotes that might be taken over by a remote pilot. In this way you can let the remote do the easy tasks, like getting from A to B or patroling and if necessary. This would also minimize the wear on pilots. Maybe all powers (except from Ariadna and Tohaa) use this system. For the Tohaa i do not have a clue how they do things like that.
Paradiso talked about manned fighter elements (I think it was a Yu Jing pilot talking about the blockade). So a mix of manned and drone elements makes sense for someone like Yu Jing. PanO might run remote only or at least heavy fleets based on how they treat their TAGs.
Maybe the manned Fighter that is mentioned in Paradiso is a Drone carrier. A heavy fighter with a Cargo Hold full of small Fighter Drones and some extra personal to direct them.
The mothership concept/Airborne Aircraft Carrier is a nice scifi one. Has the drawback that it needs to hang back and be defended whereas a ground based system thousands of miles from the front is a bit safer, but it could be around. IIRC current plans around drone command planes like that mostly centre around close air support and having air superiority, the command plane either also Airborne radar/refuelling capable. Maybe the infinity verse version would be a relay to help shave a few nanoseconds off lag with commands, to not need as advanced or large a radar as it just gets a feed from the mothership, letting them save space and power in the drones overall
Actually, drones today are smart enough to choose their own attack routes (it's been demonstrated in an exercise, 4 drones coordinated among themselves which ones would fly distraction/Wild Weasel and which one would attack the primary target). The human is basically just there to approve the weapons fire anymore. But you probably want at least a backseater on the command plane, unless the drone command interface is simpler than the newest iPhone FaceScan unlock. Having a backseater lets the pilot concentrate on flying the plane and dealing with air threats, while the backseater drops bombs on ground targets. For a pretty damn crazy look at high-end flight, read Chohei Kambayashi's Yukikaze and Good Luck, Yukikaze (the anime really didn't get anywhere near as cool as the books!). Too bad the third book still hasn't been translated.
I will read it. About AFV: I don't think the big powers will use any Battle Tanks. Not even tracked APC. To expencive, to heavy and to slow. I think they will mostly use wheeled AFVs. Somethink like GTK Boxer or Striker. And that only from lokal production since it will be inconvenient to haul these through the galaxy. I don't think that Ariadnans use theses on a realy big scale if any at all. According to the fluff i read there are not many railways on dawn to move them arround, and everywhere are damn trees getting in the way. About Ships: Since there are Pirates (at least on Dawn) i think there are also ships to figth them. I can't say how big they would be, but maybe not biger than a frigat. I imagine my Irmandinhos going arround on PT boats like the Lagoon company.
Tracked vehicles are not that much more expensive than their wheeled counterparts, and wheels only make you go faster along good roads - and you still need some sort of heavy transport to move a Stryker long distances. On the other hand, tracks geve you much better maneuverability on broken terrain and are more durable, so I'd say you are killing them off way too early. By the way - Maghariba has mini-tracks for feet =) As for MBTs - again, I doubt they'll go away completely, although I can see them turning into something more SPG-like: modern tank constructors are contemplating up-gunning new tanks to the calibers used by self-propelled howitzers (i.e. german Rheinmetall Neue Panzerkanone 140 or russian 2A83). Which in turn would mean either going the fleet way and dropping armor almost altogether in favor of active defenses (TO Camo tank with secondary anti-missile guns?) or trying to also up-armor them to match the improved firepower. Edit: looking at Maghariba again, and remembering its prototypes from Ghost in the Shell - I wouldn't put it past Hyperpowers to have tanks with (tracks or wheels or maybe even WiG-based propulsion)+legs combination for maximum mobility, although it seems needlessly complicated to me.
This discussion is extremely interesting and well thought. . . Has been IMMENSELY useful for framing realistic references about the R.P.G. Campaign that I'm mastering here in the dedicated Subforum. . . It revolves around a Heavily Mechanized Mercenary Company, based in Ariadna and fighting on behalf of Dawn's Patriots against encroaching exploitative Megacorps backed by Hyperpowers like Panoceania and Yujing. . . While those Mercs are helped by Allies like Haqqislamites, Nomads and even Tohaa "Renegades" (secretely opposed to the uncaring, selfish "Illuminati" controlling the Artichoke-heads from behind the scenes) their technological base is STILL Ariadnan. . . So they have access to MAINLY contemporary Real-world "Wargear" ranging from 1950 Soviet Red Army stuff to 2020 U.S.A. prototypes, JUST BARELY "enhanced" by Teseum "magical Adamantite / Vibranium" properties AND selected Human Sphere Tech (such as a "Vintage" Ariadnan Snipergun with a Nomad-made "Cyberlinked Smartscope" and firing Haqqislamites Viral Ammo). . . Now the Players Will have to decide if staying RELATIVELY low key as Mission Parameters go, or amp-up the risks employing "Heavy Gear" againsts some Hyperadvanced foes, like Yujing Miners entrenched in the Exclusion Zone with Zanshi Garrison of guards with Guijia support. . . Or even worse Varunan High Sea "Floating Factories" scouring seabeds of Teseum Nodules and with crews defended by Contractors that are former "Blue Sea Navy Marines". . . As the actually active Players are a Dogwarrior Caledonian Army Officer, a Morat Krakot Renegade Daturazi and two Nomad Gecko Pilots, I think that full-scale military engagements are ALMOST a given. . .
About comparative Military Vehicle Levels of Ariadna versus Hyperpower Corp Interlopers then I think that Ariadnan Special Forces SHOULD have access to vehicles comparable to the best from U.S.A.R.F. Ospreys (maybe with Turboreactors rather than Tilt-Rotors) and MAYBE evolved versions of Russian Hind Attack Copters (able to carry Anti-Tank Payloads AND a Spetsnatz Squad). . . Powerful Yes, but not so much against "Azure Dragons" flyers (whose mobility SHOULD be on pair with the Hunter-Killer Megadrones of Terminator's Skynet) or even HEAVIER stuff like the "Dolly Dagger" Orbital Dropship (owned by a SINGLE Pan-O Hexa Agent) and comparabile to the Colonial Marines Shuttle of Aliens. . . On the Land Factor then I think that even Paramilitary Level wireless vehicles are not to be discounted; Real World "U.S. Marshalls/ F.B.I. S.W.A.T." equivalent of Police ATV Trucks / Vans with 4x4 Buggy Wheels, low% Teseum Armour Plating and a pintle-mounted / turretted Browning Cal.50 with T2 Ammo SHOULD be able to handle whatever fancy "Panzer Light Hovertank" the Corporate Security Mercs are able to smuggle on Planet Dawn. . . As for Drone Support we are yet seeing the efficace of Remote / Wirelinked Traktor Muls; some smaller, fancier Raptor Flyers (like one seen in the second-last "Fast & Furious" movie, owned by an International Weapon Merchant) could be usefully deployed by Ariadnan Military Force Supports. . . As for Artillery had an interesting afterthought; I Think that INSTEAD of big, lethal "Anti-Bunker Smart-Missiles" launched in small numbers, Ariadnans SHOULD employ rather "Large Volley Swarms" of Esplosive Rockets. . . Those could not be easily Hacked by the enemy "Superior Infowar" and are cheap enough to blanket whole fields to neutralize big targets of some relevance. . . As for the "Ultimate Threat" of precision Orbital Artillery Strikes it is yet in the Game Background that Ariadnans Satellites simply solve the relative antiquatedness of their Mass-Drivers (it compare to the state-of-the-art Panoceanan "Smart Railguns" !!) with Quantity over Quality, firing Hundreds, if not Thousands, of Low% Teseum Alloy small darts rather than the enormous Flechette-Harpoons of the Hyperpowers main hitech starship cannons. . . For the precision of strikes, rocket salvos / orbital strikes / plain old recoilless cannon howitzers, the Hyperpower Foe could count on complicate "Virtual Chaff" or Holographic Camouflages, but not something that could not be countered by outing advance Spetsnatz Scouts with a 250 years old Laser-Painter aimed at the target general location rather than at an "Invisible Enemy. . . . .!!!
