After playing IA for a while

Zhanshi aren't even good compared to similarly priced units, it's all in the Wildcards that attach to them, even more than basically any given other sectorial.

But yeah, pretty much. Makes the rest of the IA list pretty flexible with all the medium-heavies that Yu Jing have, so I wouldn't go so far as to call the state of IA terrible just because the Core isn't Zuyong. (The dubious honour of being terrible goes to ISS, who I just can't understand what CB wants them to be anymore now that half the regular sectorials have more melee and more visors at the same time as ISS, without giving up on their long ranged competence)

 

Lei Gong makes a remarkably good pointman, but as weird as it sounds, have you considered just tossing 3 Zhanshi hackers into a link with a Tinbot?

My IA lists as late have been leaning hard into a defensive infowar style of play and it's really put my opponents on the back foot. With Krit's FD8 profile you can get a powerful defensive repeater net set up, and he lends himself well to an anti armor list.

I really like the implications of your LI/MI link idea though, it let's you take some quality shooters like the NCO Hac Tao though, I want to explore this more.

 

2 hackers + son bae + shang ji monster + haidao sniper is a core i love to use with krit and lu duan as attack pieces. The last bit of swc goes to pango for buffing rems and controlled jump for liu.
Another thing is tossing haidao completely or using unlinked son bae and going full ham with 3 zhanshi hackers.
As for time being I haven't used zuyong core in n4 yet. But harris with shang ji monster is pretty great.

 

Credit also goes to Shang-Ji HRL with a Zhanshi paramedic providing backup for an amazingly sturdy piece that just says "no" to many fireteams. Only (first world) issue being that the Shang-Ji is the only Number 2 unit in the link unless you fork out the high price of having a Zuyong paramedic or putting Shang-Jesus in the link as well.
It's one of few ways of making use of the Shang-Ji's unfortunate and uncharacteristic high PH over WIP.

I'm not convinced that putting more than two 1,5 SWC units in a core is very smart. There's a place for the Zhanshi GL and there's place for the Zhanshi Hackers, but more than that you probably want to spread the SWC out a bit. Only if the list is very short on linkable troops would I put a Son Bae* in there

* In N3 I actually used the Son Bae as a mobile assault platform and it performed surprisingly well, albeit the Smart Missile Launcher had much better rangebands.

 

2x hackers with Tinbot -6 defense seems to be a magic number for warding off most hacking attacks. 3x hackers would be nasty if you have the slots in the link. Zanshi hackers have such a tiny opportunity cost in a defensive link anyways.

Multiple hackers in a link and forward repeater net pieces really do dovetail nicely with Smart Missiles.

I love being able to use a link defensively if going second, let the opponent waste orders facing a board-control piece, and then patch back up to 5 with a nasty shooter for the active turn. I do find that HMGs are flexible enough in range that advancing them keeps all that SWC in one place from being too easy to avoid, especially if the sniper gets killed in your reactive and you reform after.

The advantage of being able to swap Shang-Jesus into a Haris configuration if needed to be offensive is nice, if the mission or table makes a firebase approach less viable.

This discussion is super timely and helpful, since I was just building an SML list with a lot of the features we're talking about here. Anyone have suggestions to make this nastier? I’m mainly wondering if there’s a better alternative to the 2x Lu Duan in the second group.

Spoiler: Don't Bunch 'Em Up, Dude

GML Packed
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 10 1
KOKRAM (Forward Deployment [+8"], Minelayer) Heavy Shotgun, E/Mitter, E/M Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 41)
HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33)
SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49)
ZHANSHI (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 16)
ZHANSHI (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 16)
ZHANSHI (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16)
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
PANGGULING (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15)

GROUP 2 5
LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower(+1B) ( | Deployable Repeater) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 24)
LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower(+1B) ( | Deployable Repeater) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 24)
MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
YÁOZĂO PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
PANGGULING (Deactivator, Repeater) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 8)

6 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

 

I have played IA quite a bit but need to collect my thoughts on it still. I do believe, however, that the principle of a "mutating" link structure of 7, 8 minis that can link in different configurations is still VERY valid within IA, given our flexibility.

I want to agree with the mention to the HRL ShanJi. Fully linked it is a sturdy ARO option due to the template, and going to the attack a B3 that hits units in cover at BS16 in the good range (which is quite generous), DMG15 Continous is GOOD against unlinked threats.

It is still better than the SonBae, in my experience, because even in the bad rangeband it cannot "auto-fail" if it needs to ARO with full negative mods (-12). It can STILL return fire in 1s, which is super crap but at least is a FtF and can still crit on 2 dice (and dodges much better on 14s).

The Zanshi or Zuyong Paramedic (the latter as a "Haris" enabler for some configurations) are godsends for our ShanJi.

Although I like the idea of 3 Zanshi Hackers, I am unsure if it is actually not better to use a ShanJi HD + a Zanshi HD in a link. The ShanJi is so much sturdier and can also go in to attack with the MultiRifle, fast... those 2 are 9 points more expensive that 3 Zanshi Hackers, but offer a superiority hacker if tagging along a ShanJesus with Tinbot, has attack capabilities, Number2, and frees a slot.

 

Pardon me for using tacticool lingo, but you seem to be missing a lot of operative ability. Only Krit wants to walk out, take a fight, and push buttons and if Krit bites the dirt you'll struggle to nab a win - even pure combat missions will challenge that list given how much of a wet paper bag most units are. Don't get me wrong, I've been playing lists like that, but they also typically lose on scenario. I would personally try and restructure it to try and get some solo or Haris troopers in there.

I'm personally not sold on keeping the Shang-Jesus in an immobile Core, so if I could get them, Jeong, and something else (preferably Tai Sheng) in a Haris to be out and roaming, I would prioritize this. Additionally you've got an obvious LT, there's no pretending anything, and you won't have much in the way of hacking protection for the link with the all-eggs-in-a-basket approach like this. Biggest issue is that the list has a lot of orders, but it gets hard-core shut down by pitchers. Add in that you're not putting the missile launcher in the small secondary group so that you have a set of separate orders for when you do catch the big 'un with Spotlight...

In either case, it's a difficult proposition. No list should actually be able to figure out those problems at 300 points, IMO, but I may suggest that you consider figuring out maybe one or two of them. Like trying to get a Zhencha in there to be backup pusher or to walk into the enemy DZ to kill a specific problem child or at least replacing one of the Rui Shi with a Daoying LT so that Krit has plenty of orders to burn (keep in mind that ISO won't prevent him from using LT orders and that he's still an engineer so won't have to eat the Reset mods to get rid of ISO)

 

Well, let me pose this proposition or thinking points, that don't really matter as far as mission is concerned:

1. How does that list handle another IA list? Take for example a list that has Lei Gong that it can use to force AROs from Haidao or Lu Duan that they don't want to make. How does it protect itself from a Hac Tao that decides to go re-enact Rambo 2? What do you do to prevent a Zhencha from climbing a wall and just murdering your key units - which by the way are your Zhanshi?
2. How does that list handle aggressive Pitchers? Forget about them using Guided for a second, what happens if they manage to get close enough to stick a Pitcher next to Krit, Lu Duan and your link - what'll you use your orders on?
3. How does that list handle a Marksmanship sniper? Given that the answer to units sticking Pitchers on the field, you need ARO presence that can't be ignored or baited out, so how does your Shang-Jesus or Haidao handle a Grenzer, a buffed Unidron sniper or even a buffed Shaytaniyah? While the last one is difficult but manageable by Shang-Jesus, the others will be punching down and punching down hard on both of the HI and they'll be present in a lot of lists.
4. How does this list handle an enemy that sets up AROs on their side of the table and refuses to end their turn on your side of the board?
5. This one is a constant in Infinity: your opponent used hacks and figured out you have a single possible unit that can be your LT and that one is not a Marker. How do you handle the Speculo, Fiday, unknown unit that infiltrated on a 13, or the 30-ish missing points in a list containing an EVO REM? Duroc?

What the list does provide a good answer to is how to handle most TAGs (except the Sphinx and maybe the Cutter), and it's reasonable at handling horde type lists (lots of synchs or sacrificial second group / synchs), but anything a bit more balanced or that leans harder on hacking than the list will probably have the tools to deal with you.

 

I've been a little obsessed with being able to take up to 3 Haidao in IA links. I'm glad they made it that White Company can only take one. It at least makes me feel IA is a little unique with them.

To the below I can add a Zhanshi, or a Zuyong, or a Shang Ji, even a Hulang or Gong because it has SJ it can count as SJ core. All depending on mission or whatnot.

HǍIDÀO (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
HǍIDÀO (Engineer, Deactivator) Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25)
HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33)
SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 38)

 

@Triumph and @Mahtamori , great explanations and feedback thanks. Your analysis applies well to the general principles of this thread, not just my list. Good stuff. To avoid threadjacking I'll spoiler specific replies to your helpful feedback.

My question on the general topic is, can an IA list get along okay -without- those MI/LI elements?

Spoiler: Stuff about fixing a SML list for IA with 2x Zanshi hackers

@Triumph I see your points on the list, reworked it with a lot of that in mind. I actually posted the wrong list, the one I meant to post had two Zanshi to hide the Lt at least a little bit... but that's not enough for a determined assassin, I see.

I'll take the Daoying suggestion thanks, it also adds another unit which can deal with being pinned down under repeaters. 3 orders for 22 points hidden under camo ain't bad.

The order split works out okay if Kokram's forward ranging, the link's mainly-defensive efforts (maybe a reposition max unless many things go wrong), and the SML's 4-5 orders of boom are all in one pool. There are 7 regular and 2 Lt-NCO orders in that pool, plenty for 3-5 on Kokram positioning and dropping repeaters and 4-5 of SML goodness.

It is tempting to switch the Haris into the group with the Core link to give that group 9 regular orders and one irregular, and then Kokram having 4 regular orders and 2 Lt orders... but I worry that 4-5 shots with the SML will leave the Haris starved afterwards.

Regarding mission choice, this list is a general build. I've been having pretty decent success with generalist builds tweaked just a bit for each mission recently: with the edition change to work through still (I'm only about 10 games in for N4 so far thanks to the stupid plague), I find keeping some things constant so I can focus on effects of variations really helpful. This list is probably for stand-up fights and territory-holder missions. I would have another list for go-get-'em missions, based on Liu Xing, Zencha, and a very mobile Haris.

@Mahtamori that "how would you deal with" list is really helpful thanks.

As is the general point about missing operative ability (for the record, I think a Lu Duan can cause a lot of trouble on its own, 2 of them even moreso).

Even for a SML list, dropping the Lu Duan entirely and figuring out a small, nasty Haris that can deal with MSV snipers, dish some pain, and haul a repeater up the board seems the best approach there. Thank you for making that clear. It also needs to have a non-HI member to deal with repeaters so the others can close.

Lei Gong seems like the key member for that. I'm pretty committed to trying out Shang Jesus thoroughly to discover his limitations, so he's in. Panguling FTO can then tag along at least for the first couple moves, to get up the board.The Panguling can also refill Kokram's repeater stash or mines and Lei Gong's blitzens. it can be ditched if the 6-2 guys need to move fast or if it can't survive in the midfield. This Hairs feels pretty flexible. Do you guys see anything serious limitations of this Haris that I should keep in mind (other than not going to to toe with fully-linked ARO pieces on their terms)?

I would probably A/B test this Haris against what I can do with a Lu Duan and a solo operator like a Liu Xing, to see which is more powerful with my playstyle.

Here's what I came up with given the tweaks you suggested:

GML Packed v4
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 7
KOKRAM (Forward Deployment [+8"], Minelayer) Heavy Shotgun, E/Mitter, E/M Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 41)
HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33)
ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / CC Weapon, Breaker Pistol(+1B). (0 | 28)
ZHANSHI (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 16)
ZHANSHI (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 16)
SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16)
ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11)

GROUP 2 6 1
DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order]) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 22)
LÉI GŌNG Shock Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser, Blitzen / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 34)
SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49)
PANGGULING FTO (Repeater) Light Shotgun ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 12)
Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)

5.5 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

 

I've low key been trying to get the new Lu Duan into a list and I've been having problems with that price point, those weapons, and the shift in meta to get a list I'm comfortable with.

When I write lacking "operative ability" I kind of literally mean "operative" as in "specialist operative" :p
Although, I do hint that an "operative" actually needs some extra abilities.

Basically, Krit and Tai Sheng are Operative As Fuck as the local military jargong goes (albeit using heretical profanities as that's how my language curses). I'm sure you could make a more diverse division of roles than CB's rather crude "light infantry, skirmishers, remote, etc" which'd look more like "interference, generator, recovery, operative, brawler, fire support, etc" to describe what their intended role is and I'd put Lu Duan in the interference category with two of Krit's profiles in operative and the Feuerbach Krit profile in fire support.
It's a half-formed theory that mostly follows what Section9 wrote about what is required of a list in Infinity (and a few other list building advice guides).
Interference: a unit who fills the role of being a speed bump. Messenger Remotes, Nomad Bandits, most hackers and most skirmishers
Generator: a unit who fills the role of feeding other units orders. Kaung Shi, nearly all light infantry below 15 points
Recovery: a unit who tries to repair key units when they go down. All doctors, paramedics, and engineers.
Operative: a unit who primarily tries to play the objectives, including clearing them of enemies. Guilang, Krit, Santiago KHD, Nourkias, etc
Brawler: a unit who primarily tries to win fights and preferably on the enemy's side of the table. Hulang, Liu Xing, Andromeda, and even Mary Problems. JSA is the most Brawler sectorial I can think of.
Fire support. doesn't need explaining I don't think. Yan Huo, Shang-Jesus, basically all TAGs, Gamma, Böjg, Kurgat, etc etc.

You can probably argue some units fit multiple categories and you can probably argue that as you use a unit they fit a different category than how I use them.

I've started committing myself to explore other factions to try and get a feel for what sort of limitations they have rather than being blinded by what others feel is what works, taking advantage of the fact that we're currently forced to do TTS games only - so I haven't been playing IA as much even if I have come to see it as my Main. Here's the only IA GML list I've ran so far:
Hackable Army
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 10 1
TAI SHENG Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Flash Pulse ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 39)
CHIEF JEONG Combi Rifle, Light Rocket Launcher, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 30)
ZÚYǑNG (Tactical Awareness) Heavy Machine Gun / CC Weapon, Breaker Pistol(+1B). (1.5 | 37)
SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16)
HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33)
ZHANSHI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
ZHANSHI (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 16)
ZHANSHI (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 16)
DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order], Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 30)
KOKRAM (Forward Deployment [+8"], Minelayer) Heavy Shotgun, E/Mitter, E/M Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 41)

GROUP 2 3
WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 15)
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)

5.5 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

You'll note how the GML isn't the primary unit and how it's part of a Fireteam. I actually used it on ARO duty and yeah, it kind of sucked at it because it's lacking Supportware. It's actually more of a Krit-centric list with the Tai Sheng Haris doing the heavy lifting. Yes, the Weibing could absolutely become an EVO REM, but my rationale is that I've had more problems that can be solved with Sensor than can be solved with Supportware lately (at that time)
At present time I'm starting to have problems with TR HMG REMs and hackers.

---

Now, can IA be ran without those elements?
Yes. Sure. It's more of a quality build, however, so I don't think you can afford to also try and make something that requires quantity work at the same time (that means don't try to rule the hacking game at the same time). I've tried to run a list focusing specifically on Shang-Ji and Shang-Jesus; it fell flat on it's arse. Shang-Ji and above all else Krit Feuerbach performed well in that mission, but with 200 points focused on a very small area my opponent managed to delay my ability to push buttons significantly and I don't see it working any better against other opponents, either. But hey, they face a Ratnik for the first time that game and boy is that bastard scary! It was actually a relief when it went down and I only had to deal with a Vet Kazak in a Fronto/Line Core.

In either case, here's an untested list that resulted in my redesigning that Shang-Jesus list:

The New New Shang-Ji-Sus
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 10 2
SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49)
HÚLÁNG FTO (Fireteam: Duo) Submachine Gun(+1B), E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
KOKRAM FTO MULTI Rifle(+1 Dam), Chain-colt, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order]) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 22)
LÉI GŌNG Shock Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser, Blitzen / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 34)
PANGGULING FTO (Repeater) Light Shotgun ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 12)
HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33)
SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 38)
ZHANSHI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
ZHANSHI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)

GROUP 2 2
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)

4.5 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

It was originally intended to be a dual-Haris type list, but with one of the "Haris" being exclusively units that are also Wildcards, adding 26 points of "sacrificial chaff" was a bit of a no-brainer because it's so cheap and the Core bonuses are so. Very. Strong.

The awkward part about this list is that you want Krit in the Core so that Krit can recover the Pangolin when it goes down. You use the Pangolin to bait AROs from Kamau/Grenzer/Bolt (or other MSV) snipers during your first active turn and then gun them down using normal rolls from Lei Gong. Once MSV ARO is suppressed you apply Shang-Ji and Haidao as normal. The problem for Krit is that there's no room in the Core to do this because you want one of the Shang-Jesus in there, you want the Haidao in there as the Core will probably be stationary fire support, and you want the Panggo in there (plus the Panggo is kinda bad in an overly aggressive haris) and the Zhanshi can't join the Haris...
In either case, you have 6 candidates for the Core so if the panggo needs to be left a smoldering wreck, that's fine.

Is that list perfect? Not at all. In fact, I haven't ran it because it's gambling on a soft-skew to get an early upper hand. There's a lot of situations that you have to deal with "as best as you can manage". You may need to let a Shang-Jesus or the Haidao die in order to deal with a Speculo. Several of your units will have to hope their DAM 13 weapons are enough to dissuade Duroc. You have a strong Reset game, but it's still a gamble for you and your opponent is only risking orders. And so on. The biggest problem is a total lack of brawlers, IMO, so if your opponent manage to get you locked down you are locked down and have to punch a brick wall barehanded to get out.

However, it does have a credible answer to most situations owing to how you can distribute the risks and the competence to counter or recover.

Edit: post it and realise one of the Shang-Jesus is actually a HRL. Oh well. That's actually an ARO beast, but does make you more vulnerable to hacking...