Today I played three games with my Nomads, and the opponents were Acontecimento / MO / Svalarhaima. My key pieces to impose Targeted State to the enemies were Tsyklon or Zero(FO)+Morans. To be straightforward, my conclusion is "The intention was good to buff SMLs, but it seems like it's gone too far." Here are the reasons why. Major Buffs Using SMLs in N3 were like these(Restrictions of 5 attacks per turn / Putting Repeaters nearby the target / Forward Observing are still the same, so I will be mentioning only the major differences). SML: Dam 14, Circular Template AP+DA. U-turn protocol: Regardless of the distance, you were able to ARO the Guided attacks to impose stackable -3 MODs, with hackers who had the protocols. Spotlight protocol: Had -3 MODs to the hacker, so combining with Burst 1 it felt like kind of wasting Orders to Spotlight. You needed EVO hacker to Coordinate the Hacking Attack, so it was difficult to Spotlight. In N4, using SMLs have become as follows: SML has become ML with BS Attack(Guided), so it has become DAM 14 Circular Template AP+EXP. U-turn protocol is now missing: The only way to impose negative MODs to the attack is ECM(Guided). Spotlights now lack of the -3 MODs: HDs are already cheap, and you don't need EVOs to Coordinate the Hacking attacks(regardless of how useful EVOs are). So It is much easier to multi-Spotlight. Indirect Effects from other Buffs The following factors are suspected to be indirectly affecting the outputs of the BS Attack(Guided). Targeted State now imposes -3 MOD the Reset. Targeted State now lingers until you successfully pass the Reset roll, or an allied Engineer removes it. You can now Spotlight with AROs. Hacking Devices are now cheaper than before, so it is easy to put several Hackers in your list. In conclusion, 3 major buffs and other indirect reasons are suspected to be 'buffed the BS Attack(Guided) to excess'. So my personal opinion/suggestion to the issue is, it would be better if one or two Major Buffs have not happened. Thank you for reading the post.
I would argue that your sample isn't big enough and maybe your meta isn't used to it. The first games against lists focussing on hacking and guided attacks are always rough, since the opponent doesn't focus on clever deployment and anti-repeater measures. But once they get erased from nowhere, they learn. I have something around ten to fifteen games played with a hacking-guided DBS-list now and most of the time the Clipper was more a back-up solution or a psychological thread. In your active turn, it is an expensive strategy to deploy and you run into coin-flips with spotlight and reactively your repeaters are in thread. That may be a bit different with Morans in nice positions, but that is not always possible. In addition to this, I experienced too many occasions, where I needed three to five missiles to take out my initial target. To conclude: Yes, it is a strong tactic, but not overdone. Just something new.
In most faction, it's a trap because the opportunity cost is too high (a faction that's too dependant on SWC, poor hackers, bad repeater coverage) It's particularly strong in Nomad, where there the opportunity cost is extremely small. (Taking a Interventor, Morans, Heckler with Fast Panda are all pretty standard) It is one of the best assassination tool available in the game at the moment. There is very little counterplay (though there are some). - - - - - Here's the math on it I'm taking Nomad as an example Order 1: Heckler Move, Move (Starts at 16" in a 12" deployment mission, ends up at up to 20") Order 2 : Heckler Move, Deploy Panda (ends up at up to 24", panda up to 32", panda's range up to 40") There is basically no counterplay to setting up your repeater in the correct position After that, you need to target. Interventor Spotlight versus WIP13: 51.75% Interventor Spotlight versus WIP14: 48.5% Interventor Spotlight versus WIP15: 45% It's pretty decent odds. You can expect to get it with 2~ order spent. After that, you can shoot your guided with absurdly high chance of success (Rolling on 18 vs Dodge-3) Can't really list all the math here because the damage is based on both PH and ARM of the opponent, but it is fairly high. It's a tactic that is extremely efficient versus a Rambo-focussed archetype. - - - - - As an assassination tool It's a bit more order intensive than other assassination tools in the game because you need to setup a repeater. Though that repeater is still VERY relevant for subsequent turn and might be something you would've liked to do anyway, in which case this is the most order efficient assassination possible in the game. It is completely risk free. - - - - - As a zone control tool It makes all your repeater one of the biggest threat in the game. Passing turn with one of your trooper in targeted state versus an opponent that has a guided missile bot is close to the worst situation a trooper can be in the game. Your opponent needs to either completely avoid them, or waste orders resetting out of it. - - - - - Is it OP? You need to take in account the opportunity cost of the strategy. In most faction, this would be a very significant investment and I'd be tempted to say it might even be a bad strategic decision because you have to spend too much into it. In Nomad, it can be pretty oppressive, since the opportunity cost is extremely low. - - - - - Counters and limitations While this tool is pretty oppressive in the right circumstance, there are a couple of counters. TAGs have ECM: Guided (-6), which makes the odds of damage quite a bit lower. Resetting with your TAG is usually going to be much better than Dodging (so possible tank a hit, but remove the targeted state, forcing them to spend more orders). An impersonator close to whoever you want to protect is a hard counter to the strategy, it nullifies the template. Those are the counters that I can think of, but repeaters being uninteractable with in ARO and the enemy troopers being in a risk free situations makes the possible counters pretty slim. If you can think of more, please do share!
It's a very strong passive tool and excessively low risk, but it's not a very strong active tool due to the low burst meaning it should mainly be used for high-priority targets. Strength is directly proportional to how easy it is for the faction to put repeaters where they need to be. I've played a few games now and it's perpetually like this, but you don't always get to use it as your opponent will prioritize getting out of Targeted, effectively eating a bunch of orders.
That sounds reasonable. These three games went quite lucky for me, that the opponents were not expecting the combo, and the attack roll of 18 won almost every f2f. I should try some more, and see how people counter this. Thank you. Yes, I guess quite a lot of things we had since N3 had become more menacing thanks to several changes in Perimeter weapons, Hacking Attacks. FO infiltrators, Camo FD +4" FastPandas, Repeaters on AD troops(Hellcats, Tomcats, Meteor) and infiltrators, Pitcher with X-visor might be who leverage those. Also, we now got infiltrating Repeaters thanks to the change on Morans. So even if throwing FastPandas with my Heckler sometimes feel like a bit order intensive when there are many obstacles to get to the opponent's area+opponent is watching over those galleries, we have many other options so it won't be a problem I guess. Thanks for sharing the tactics. But I'm afraid that if I were the opponent, it might feel like quite a waste of assets, to put precious Impersonators only to use it as a bodyguard. I might be wrong since I've never played other factions with Impersonators. But again, thank you for the comment. I should research it a bit more. Agreed, my games were quite lucky enough to almost never lose the f2f of the Guided attack rolls, and the Lieutenants were so obvious(Stephan, Jean, Fusilier). I think the combo still has the potential to be order intensive while being incapable of acquring the desired results. I'll be trying out some more games, hopefully the meta will be able to handle it. Thanks.
sml is a trap because 1) while you waste turn 1 setting up spotlight and doing your 5 tries flipping coins you dont advance board presence and dont set up reactive threats 2) you would do nothing against a properly deployed player or a good list (no good assassination targets - same as with Squalo specfiring terror way back)
Two tries, on average, to land Spotlight. 45% odds aren't great, but they can certainly be worth it against the right target. It's a trap if you plan to use it every game, regardless of the circumstances, and don't have any other ways of killing your opponent's pieces. It's not a trap to have it as one of the tools in your list, and to watch for opportunities to use it effectively. The SML bot is only 16 points.
17 points and 1.5 swc Diphoration is right, in Nomads/Corregidor the opportunity cost is low because you take Morans and Jazz in every list anyway but I'd still rather spend that swc on a second TRbot or a backup attack piece and flipping coins is the missile part - you get a limit of 5 attacks and enough ftfs where you roll low would caution you to not rely on single die strategies
The missile part is about as far from a coin flip as Infinity gets. Against a linked Kamau, for example, you're 69% to wound vs. 0% to be wounded in return. Where in Infinity will you find better odds than that?
Couple of important rules: - You can't dodge against Spotlight. Also you can't fail guts after succesfully Resetting against Spotlight. You are simply standing there until you get Spotlighted. - You can't Reset vs. BS Attack (Guided). You can't guts move vs. BS Attack (Guided). - Guided attack always uses template. Staying near unconscious enemies makes you immune to Guided attacks. Also consider the following: - Guidebot is an extremely good target for enemy drop troops due to it's large base. Pitcher dude is also probably somewhat easy to kill. - Compared to other unblockable attack vectors currently in the game, Pitcher+Guided is somewhat easy to counterplay. I mean there are factions that can start killing your cheerleaders with with 1st order.
set white noise in front of him, trigger dodge aro in ZOC with a skirmisher, shoot you rolling 18 vs opponent 11 is doing coinflips
Also: staying near a Cybermasked KHD makes you immune ;) So you're saying the solution is to play one of the factions that are already really good at doing the missile launcher trick and that we should be using largely speaking the units that are used for the missile launcher trick in mostly the same way as are used in the missile launcher trick, except we need to spend a bunch of orders getting a combi rifle armed non-MSV unit close enough? Hmm...
i recognize the attempt to diverge into another round of YJ whining and I respectfully advise to get gud
You are as usual dreadfully mistaken. How about you do some leg work on your own arguments for once. Care to explain how your suggested strategy would work and how it'd save on orders and make the game play different from what was complained about?
I already said that guided tactics dont develop board presence. It is extremely easy to get rid of a repeater in active (eats an order, but sometimes its an impetous or irreg) Using skirmishers or warbands or impersonators (if you have access) to pierce through defence, kill order pool and sit on opponents face is a more effective strategy than investing god knows how many orders and sending hecklers/dep repeater troops on suicide runs to get into a 1-to-1 diceoff with one unit
Why do you send your Hecklers/Pitchers on suicide runs and how badly do you position your repeaters to make them easier to remove than Warbands? I mean, I agree that deployable repeaters can't do these tactics described very well, but those usually come on units quite capable of creating board presence. And let's not forget that you suggested sticking a White Noise down in the opponent's DZ here...
Because this presumes a suicide run most of the time unless there is not much of ARO or an insanely dense table - or your order investment increases you won't always get a comfortable 2-level building that you can send fastpanda to be safe from a chainrifle on impetuous/irreg order - and simultaneously project important hacking area; pitchers require a flat point that your pitcher carrier can see and hit; peacemakers are fat
And this is when we remember that you were talking about sticking a White Noise Zone within 10" of the Kamau.
