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A MOment of bitterness

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Judge Dredd, Mar 13, 2019.

  1. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member

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    Looking over the new Tohaa profiles and seeing their new CC monster:

    Screenshot_20190312-194046_Messenger.jpg

    I cant help but feel stiffed by CB with regards to MO. This guy is very likely to get into CC if he wants to and will tear up anything that says otherwise short of a few melee specialists. Natural born warrior and dual wild give him a lot of flex on other troops of all types. His 6-2 movement is augmented by metachem to ridiculous levels. Assault is largely unnecessary unless he gets 8-4 move at which point stacking NBW and assault makes him a living missile. Further he is supported by his faction with all kinds of smoke from various launchers to aid in his positioning. If he cant, he's basically what Pano considers BS 14 but others consider top tier BS with burst 4 and reasonably sound defense. Give him a heavy pistol and panzerfaust because why not at this point? And let's not forget he can take a pokemon too to just eat some AROs as he charges in. Its shit like this that makes me say PanO's knights are a fucking joke and a bad one. I pretty much dropped MO after the update because I didnt like how the sectorial shaped out. This makes me want to just leave PanO. The father knight spitfire is a handful of points behind this guy and is miles behind in utility, mobility, durability and lethality. But hey, Teutons are so great because they can link, amirite? I am sick to death of PanO being kneecapped because of 1 fucking ballistic skill. Take it away and do shit right like you do for everyone else. I dont know how the hell we got Varuna to be so nice, it must of been all the dead, treacherous and incompetent characters they love to give us. Theres nothing left to defend PanO's lack of smoke and half assed melee unit design as Corvus Belli so brazenly provides this in what ever manner they please to everyone else and gives them just as powerful shooting pieces. I've been branching out into Combined Army and now into Haqq recently and I may just never come back to this mess of disappointment. I came to PanO for the knights. I may leave it for the same reason.
     
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  2. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    The Father Knight is actually pretty effective. The biggest weakness of MO is the lack of smoke. However, when maneuvering around dense urban terrain, its not uncommon for a link of knights to get into melee combat. The Father Knight tends to do decently well vs units that lack CC skills. Especially when fighting through infiltrator spam. Zero, Foxtrots, and the like don't do well vs a Father Knight in melee. Another big advantage is that the Father Knight is only size 2. Being able to hide your mini easier is an underestimated advantage.

    But yes, melee is a secondary and utility ability for Knights. They are primarily still all about shooting the enemy to death. If you want to crush your foes in melee then other factions are far better at it.

    If they don't want smoke in Pano then they should just give MO an exclusive smoke user. It sucks that VIRID got a nimbus+ thrower and yet lacks any melee units.

    On the bright side, generic Pano can lay down nimbus+ for Joan of Arc, the Father Knight, or the Montesa Knight.
     
    #2 Death, Mar 13, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
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  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    6-2 MOV is limited to non-humans. Joan2 can because she's a ReCreation, not a natural-born human.
     
  4. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    And then I thought that CB was against 12" Assault.....

    On topic: just accept that MO is here to suck and emrace uphill games or move to other factions.
     
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  5. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Yea, because CSUs cannot be 8-4 .....
     
  6. chaos11

    chaos11 Well-Known Member

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    It's pretty clear he meant 6-2 move as the base move of the profile.
     
  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Hey, that's the line CB gave us when we were asking about making the Shang Ji 6-2MOV when N3 rolled out (and all HI became 4-4).

    You're also assuming that any CSU rolling super-move is still a human and not an LHost.
     
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  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Assault's kinda shitty mess of a rule though. It's an entire order and needs LOF it's kinda why noone uses it. You move into LOF and normally shoot whatever's shooting you, and getting into CC past ARO stuff normally requires the help of smoke...

    Which prevents Assault.

    TBH I think Assault should be a common order anyone can do that doesn't require LOF with a -6 MOD, and if you have the Assault Skill then you can do it without minus MODs. That would make CC more viable in general which would help out every faction like MO that pays across the board for an enhanced CC stat, and would help improve the value of models that sit in the CC17-19 range as well.
     
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  9. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    Not sure either way about the rest of your suggest (re: mod/LoF) but I kind of like this idea of assault being available as a general long skill. Running in a straight line, screaming at the top of your lungs while swinging wildly is something we learn as violent toddlers. Surely don't need martial arts specialisation for that. If anything, melee experts know not to do that and be more careful about approaching targets XD
    Which then I guess makes your suggestion more viable: the "swinging wildly" part is not happening with melee experts hence them being able to do it with no mods.
     
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  10. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    whats funny about this profile is that it still isnt as good as just running a triad of makaul.
     
  11. injenegr

    injenegr Well-Known Member

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    Come on, guys. CB needs to sell new miniatures. Miniatures with interesting, powerful and unusual skills are much easier to sell. Most of PanO players already have Pedre Cabaliero and Teutones, but nobody bought Kiel-san yet. If any doubts are still present, check new Shas line infantry: 13pts for a guy with Zapper.
    We saw this shit with GW, i'm not surprised now.
     
  12. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    That's because the Flammenpoofs (I will get everyone to refer to them that way!) cheat, they abuse impetuous with triads (and every tohaa model is a wildcard!) and pack a selection of skills purpose-designed to wreck CC troopers.
     
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  13. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    I, on the other hand do like the way MO turned out after update. But yes, Teutons still suck, and F-K don't have a clear focus to some extent. Compared 1 to 1 Kiel-San comes ahead, though not really to the extent of GW, reagardless of injenegr's rant. They do work well as a Pain Train base, though, especially the ML.

    We've been through this discussion multiple times. PanO got stuck in a limited design space early on, and got no one really passionate about them involved in the changes for a long time. This seems to be changing, as MO update - a mixed bag, but generally for the better - and VIRD seem to indicate. It certainly stopped me from selling MO off, I was ready to do so last year.
     
  14. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what's the hype about these guys. They are roughly Daiyokai who aren't exactly known for being game-breaking, to put it mildly.

    Speaking of Assault skill - it needs much more than a single slight tweak to be useful. Seeing how it's not too likely you will begin your order in plain sight of the enemy you want to charge, and even then you are reduced to B1, and that if you don't see your opponent, but are in range of a Move-Move you will just provoke ZoC ARO and enter BTB (then hitting 6 or 9 results higher on your die) instead of waiting to Assault somehow...

    Honestly, I don't see how this skill can be good without addressing all of those concerns, not just one of them.

    Huh?
     
  15. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Me too. I've just moved my MO stuff to attick.

    But you agree that's a rather "low placed bar" as far as expectations go ?
     
  16. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    If he rolls 8-4 MOV he can make 12" Assault.

    Something I wished we could do on Montesa, even if it was a single occurrence in a lifetime ;P
     
  17. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    Metachem for 8-4 move, and then assault combines move + move + smack with sword. 8 + 4 = 12
     
  18. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I see, thanks.
    Still, I'd rather shoot Red Fury in that situation... Well, most of the time, that is.
     
  19. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    I do agree that new MO aren't that easy to work with, especially if you want those two Combat Groups. But for me they're much better than before, and they've finally stopped being a one trick pony, even if it was a good trick.

    Fix Teutons, boost F-K - just a bit, to make it either more focused or a better toolbox, make OS hacker and MSV2 linkable, and allow Magisters to join Hospitaller links too, and I'd have no serious reservations.
     
  20. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    What's that oppinion even supposed to be base on? Magic ponies?
    Yeah we certainly went through that one multiple times and last time I checked we were fairly happy with SAA and NCA. Varuna certainly turned out great, that one seems unanimous.

    MO is currently the exception in PanO. With the amount of complaints (compared to the frequency of complaints about any other Sectorial or Vanilla combined) being a strong indicator that something is off.
    Strongly disagree that it's a mixed bag but and "generally for the better". On the contrary, old MO was limited but more powerful. The one way I'll voluntarily put new MO on the table is with Soldiers of Fortune, just to actually have the Smoke and the Orders to run one of those Spitfire Links.

    Handing the single "Tohaa Knight" in existence 6-2, NBW, DA/Shock Dual Wield on top of a B4 gun while JSA's and MO's entire HI range kind of has to sit there and take it sounds fair and balanced.

    DeFeresen? AP+Shock Templar CCW - would like to swap for one of those default DA CCWs, the Templar garbage can go collect dust in the armoury.
    Domaru? CC32 sounds cool and all until you only do 1W with it or just Immobilize when you actually get it - unless you are Neko, where your problem becomes that the guys you can link with are Domaru and you don't have a B4 gun to be a great addition to Keisotsu.
    Daiyokai? Just look at this thing next to the Kiel-San. What would you ever take a Daiyokai for? Maybe hitting structures?
    Father Knights? Troops that consist of a bunch of (CC) stats with a gun on top and nothing else have been on the bad side of efficiency ever since the game existed. Being linkable to the possibly worst Linetroopers in the game somehow doesn't seem to offset that. Compared to let's say a Crane+CGs, Orc+Regulars what would you take? "That's another Sectorial" oh my yes, yes it is and the Core Link as well as the supporting staff for it is much better than what you can squeeze out of MO with the same basic template.
    Teutons? Oh look at that, not being stuck with an AP CCW despite having a B4 gun, how interesting. Courage WIP 12 instead of Religious seems good.

    The fun part is that a lot of Tohaa player will opt to not run them because they're actually hackable. Something Tohaa don't really have to bother with so far.
    Wonder if he is good enough to make it past that, especially without Stealth.

    @Judge Dredd yeah man I know how you feel and wholeheartedly agree.

    They're Daiyokai with access to Mates, much better CC capability thanks to NBW being far superior to MA2, can Link in Triads for easy access to whatever you want in their Links, have 6" Move+CC Attack and get Metachemistry for shits and giggles.
    The little extra fun is that they're WIP12 for some reason, which conveniently shaves a point off since they have courage and aren't Specialists, that's kinda neatly optimized as well.
     
    #20 Teslarod, Mar 13, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019