A knightly step onwards

Well, I was theory crafting yesterday and came up with the following list. (And I'm a little bit proud of mylself because I could exceed 10 Orders)


8 Knight 14 Order
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GROUP 1 8 1 1 3
JOAN OF ARC (Lieutenant) MULTI Rifle, Pulzar(+1B) / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon(PS=4). (+1 | 47)
KNIGHT HOSPITALLER (Doctor) MULTI Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon(PS=5). (0 | 30)
KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, DA CC Weapon(PS=5). (1.5 | 32)
KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges ( | TinBot: Firewall [-3]) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon(PS=6). (0 | 31)
KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CC Weapon(PS=6). (1.5 | 33)
TEUTONIC KNIGHT Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust ( | TinBot: Firewall [-3]) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon(PS=5). (0 | 19)
TEUTONIC KNIGHT (Specialist Operative) Submachine Gun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, DA CC Weapon(PS=5). (0 | 19)
TEUTONIC KNIGHT (NCO) Spitfire / Pistol, DA CC Weapon(PS=5). (1.5 | 28)
WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse ( ) / Stun Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)

GROUP 2 4 1
PATHFINDER DRONBOT (Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 17)
FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
SIERRA DRONBOT Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 23)
CROSIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11)

5.5 SWC | 300 Points

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The idea is having 3 groups of Knights each with a high Burst weapon and a Specialist plus a spare FO REM with 5 orders to also do mission things. Not too fancy and I know it lacks MSV, but 8 HI is still 8 HI with a lot of orders to fuel them.

 

Thanks to the changes of impetuous troops in fireteams, knights are now less desired than ever

 

Embrace one group. You can have a Hosp. Forward Deployment +20 Duo. A hosp. Haris with forward Deployment +10, flanked by 2 peacemakers with mines... and mendoza. You only will have problems if you are going to face a heavy hacking faction, if not... you could be able to avoid the hacking zones thanks to stealth.



Or... one group but with the power of heavy fist. Konstantinos is there to prevent you from enemy being able to take orders from you... (this will depends on what your community is understanding about command tokens... I hope the FAQ will come soon).

 

Agree. You can still use the KoTHS, De Fersen, the KoJ or the TCFK. But the situation for the rest is pretty dismal.

 

I find these statements quite puzzling, look if you find the fact you do not get -3BS from been in cover that restrictive fine I guess, but its not as a dire restriction for Frenzy and impetuous units to finally not be just free discounts because they are in a fireteam.

If nothing else the new MO can actually bring knights and Duos are quite an attractive solution, not benefitting half (and only half) the cover bonuses after the turn they did damage is not such a big deal.

 

Sudenly, a BS 11 troop have the same performance shooting at our BS 14 knights that we shooting him, in the typical situation of positive range and cover. Our heavy units, dessigned for attacking, dont have firepower superiority anymore.

So nice that the differential key of the sectorial is useless now

 

That assumes you do not use the range advantages knights have and that you did not capitalize on the turn that triggered the frenzy and that you did not take advantage of the extra impetuous orders to outflank your enemies positions.

Yes, in the vacuum it makes the knights slightly worse once the Frenzy is triggered, it does not make them less survivable and one would question why you would take the "typical situation" of shooting on equal grounds especially when you are the active player?

 

Well, who is gonna take down my opponent top shooter if not my own top shooter? Or maybe because i cant advance until i take down the opponent aro pieces?

Im playing knights, i dont have enough orders to outmanouver my opponent with fancy flanking, or smoke to cover my advance, knights go face first

IDK, please enlight me

 

That is weird as I have only played MO so far in N5 and did not encounter such issues yet.

These are the two most recent lists I tried.
Testing Options
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GROUP 1 10
BLACK FRIAR (Combat Instinct) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Nanopulser / MULTI Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (1.5 | 22)
CROSIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
ORDER SERGEANT FTO (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 18)
KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, DA CC Weapon(PS=5). (1.5 | 32)
KNIGHT HOSPITALLER (Doctor) MULTI Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon(PS=5). (0 | 30)
KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO (Lieutenant) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CC Weapon(PS=6). (0 | 33)
KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges ( | TinBot: Firewall [-3]) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon(PS=6). (0 | 31)
BROTHER KONSTANTINOS FTO (Deactivator) MULTI Rifle, D-Charges, Disco Baller ( ) / Assault Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
ORDER SERGEANT FTO Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 15)
INFIRMARER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon(PS=7). (0 | 17)

GROUP 2 5
TRINITARIAN (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun(PS=6), Flash Pulse, D-Charges, Shock Mine / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
TECH-BEE Adhesive Launcher Rifle, Flash Pulse ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 9)
FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
MULEBOT (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 14)
MULEBOT (Deactivator, Repeater) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 8)

5.5 SWC | 299 Points

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Joan testing options
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GROUP 1 9 1
JOAN OF ARC v2 (Lieutenant [+1 Command Token]) AP Spitfire, Pulzar(+1B) / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon(PS=4). (1 | 49)
KNIGHT HOSPITALLER (Doctor) MULTI Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon(PS=5). (0 | 30)
KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO (Combat Jump, Super-Jump [Jet Propulsion], Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun(+1B), Flash Pulse, D-Charges, Shock Mine ( ) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon(PS=6). (0 | 38)
BROTHER KONSTANTINOS FTO (Deactivator) MULTI Rifle, D-Charges, Disco Baller ( ) / Assault Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
ORDER SERGEANT FTO Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 15)
INFIRMARER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon(PS=7). (0 | 17)
CURATOR Combi Rifle, D-Charges, AP Mine ( | GizmoKit, Deployable Cover) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
MULEBOT (Deactivator, Repeater) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 8)
FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)

GROUP 2 5 1
TEUTONIC KNIGHT (NCO) Spitfire / Pistol, DA CC Weapon(PS=5). (1.5 | 28)
CROSIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
BLACK FRIAR (Combat Instinct) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Nanopulser / MULTI Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (1.5 | 22)
ORDER SERGEANT FTO (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 18)
TECH-BEE Adhesive Launcher Rifle, Flash Pulse ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 9)

6 SWC | 299 Points

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A mixture of knights and firebases, though so far the non knight firebases have been used in a secondary role as the knights Duo in one list and the Teuron +Joan Duo did the heavy lifting.

 

I like the first list, but i miss some key troops that i love, like the Trinitarian sniper. I may try it, if i can manage to appoint a match with someone.

 

Which was about time. Now you hava a real disadvantage for your discount. You have 20 pts. knights with PF, good CC and top-dodge-skill. Welcome to pros and cons.

 

i dont care 20 pts knights. Im ok with that, they are warbands cosplayed as HI and should never be allowed to Core fireteam (cenobites should be also like that, full impetuous, and not only Frenzy).
My problem is the rest of knights, like Santiagos and Hospitallers. (also extensible to Domarus in JSA) They are not blood thirsty killing machines. Still frenzy, makes no sense. But then things like Silverstars rovers or Wumings exist. At least one of the major knight orders should have non frenzy, Core linkable, knights. i know the have to nerf Teutons (and Greeks), but they ruined the rest of the sectorial

 

While hospitaller have the best ability combo in the game (frenzy+religious) that clearly unlocks the super duper discount in the points formula, the real problem is that that they have too expensive weapons.

Look what kind of weapons the other frenzy+religous discount pieces have:
19p Kaitok: Burst3 chain rifle, Burst3 heavy pistol and Flammenspeer
20p Cenobite: Burst2 chain rifle, Burst3 heavy pistol and flash pulse (WIP13, but goes easily to wip14 in a pure core team)

Both of these excellent ARO troopers have the ability to stop* most attackers in N5. While hospitaller multi rifle DA in ARO is nice, it's not enough.

* Cenobite flash pulse is especially good because using it doesn't trigger Cenobite inner bloodlust.

 

I understand your complaint, but it's complicated.
Frenzy is now a real problem in a Fireteam, and as you said, it makes Knights worse than before (after First Blood, of course).

But how much should these Knights cost to be playable without Frenzy?
A HMG Orc costs 34 points. A HMG Hospitaler costs 32 points. The Hospitaler has better stats and skill, so Frenzy is a real discount. Without it, the Hospitaler could cost 40 points? Is this a real solution to a sectorial?

 

List of Knights that are designed for N5 and aren't outdated:
Crux, Joan V2, Mendoza, Santiago AD

List of Knights stuck in N4:
Santiagos (non AD), Sepulchre, Joan V1, Hawkins, Montesa Bike, Montesa FD

List of Knights stuck in N3:
Hospitalers, KoJ, DeFeresen

Teutons are the odd duck, somewhat saved by their ability to link with a Crux and better solo than in N4, but this is MO. How can they still not pure Link with other knights with their current downsides in a Link?

The sad truth is most knights feel bad and are bad. With how many things got updated to have synergistic loadouts at absolutely 0 downsides a 4-4 Frenzy HMG without MODs or utility doesn't cut it. The absolute minimum baseline for a barebones functional troop is no longer BS14, stats, gun. That hasn't been the case for two editions. You need to do at least 3 things adding capability nowadays. Why? Because a normal trooper usually gets 4+, 3 is already on the low end.
Let's look at a Shizoku for a second, direct upgrade in every part of the game that matters. Mimetism, AP HMG, MA3 for twice the CC capability, 6-2/Berserk/4" Dodge to actually make it into CC, AP+DA CCW at PS4 to make it multiple times more efficient to beat up a TAG DTW to have that option paired with 2W, ARM5 is great too with a Frenzy discount. All that is 11 points, noticeably more and loses 1 BS.
Pure tags with anything worth linking as well.
And it's not even that stacked with stuff compared to the actual standouts like Adil or Hatamoto.

If it's in the game, people are going to play it. And the playing field right now does have very high ceilings in terms of options that can use the limited Order pool you have efficiently every round.
Knights don't do mass TA to have more Orders and offset middling baseline performance. Most knights don't have high performance guns that outclass ARO pieces.
Everyone except the 4 Knights that actually do have a loaded kit capable of playing at face level in this environment is just sad to even look at in Army7.

MO isn't doomed, it's just behind by a lot (and ironically in need of yet another rework).
Tik is pretty much not a consideration for MO anymore, if you want one, the Lt+1 Order Version in Kestrel and Vanilla is just a plain upgrade. Seraph is replacing the Tik as the standout TAG, that can deal with threats frontally.
Crux MMMR is easy to link, gets +1SD and Albedo to support a superb gun, while being better at CC than most other Knights thanks to actually getting there with Berserk/6-2 and NBW. No Frenzy either so it won't decline throughout the game.
Joan V2 is a missile with 6-2, BS15 AP Spitfire/MA3 EXP CCW with TA to get there and a B2 Pulzar/WIP15 to sweep Markers.
Forget about her Lt Profile in MO, too many missing pieces to get it functional.
Trinitarians are still PanO's best Skirmisher. The MSR fixes your ARO problems for 25, we still can have a Minelayer Specialist with a real gun.
New Techbee and overall point cuts bring slightly more leeway.
Crusader's having SJ and the choice of Spitfire, Discoballer or Specialist on an unhackable trooper, potentially paired with Speedball to add reliability.
Santiago AD is no longer completely cooked if failing the deployment roll, 6-6 SJ with Stealth and Cybermask gets you where you want to be fast even from the edge of your DZ. And he doesn't have to roll at all in ITS missions with Exlucsion Zones.
Mendoza doubled his CC engagement range with Berserk and the Berserk changes really benefit him while dropping a healthy amount of points.
Konstantinos patches gaps in MO's capability on both the Discoballer and Skirmisher Profiles.
Teutons do work better than ever as a sort of heavy Digger that doubles as CC threat, Specialist and emergency Coordinated PZF and remain hard to dislodge for low calibre Skirmishers relying on Rifles, SMGs or templates.

Some random benefits from N5 like the TA Pathfinder and Thunderbolt Sierra also appear in MO to add some new variety.
It's a not great, not terrible kind of situation. A lot of the problems don't show until you lose a Lt roll against heavy hacking or when the newly bonkers E/Mitters everywhere take out your TAGs and HI in one shot. Building MO around the new tools everyone else has to just play the game is still a massive challenge with how clunky it always was and still is.

 

Suposedly, CB stated at some point Religious troop is also a discount rule, so the Hospitalier knight is getting 2 discounts?

 

Okay others picked up the thema already.

I looked a bit over MO and yeah the HMGs are Hosptialler (frenzy), Seraph (TAG, MULTI), KOTHS (AP, Suprise, Holo), Tik (mime-3, lost AP because he stole Seraph the show), TR bot (yeah ....) still some opitons to brute force your way. Hospitallers frenzy triggers in the state phase, so if you manage to remove that ARO piece with them your threads are getting thinner (if not said ARO piece is up again in T2, but maybe then your Spitfire can handel it).

Looking at Hospitallers I wonder a littel bit, that they are still 4-4 (fluff says that their armor is also from Orc, I don´t think MA will wight so much, we are still speaking of Pan O - the technical lead). The pts difference to Orc HMG is 2 which is not much, considering better BTS and WIP, MA Skills vs better MOV and religous should also make a little discount. I am not sure, but maybe in N4 the pts gab were bigger.

Anyway they are still capable to force their way out of DZ and later you use the guy with no kills for 16" ARO. I wouldn´t say the sectorial is ruined, its just need to take a different way - maybe.

 

MO has Brother Discoball (with high BS and +1SD), so you don't have to fight your way out DZ.

Smoke is for non-hyperpower factions.