I would go as far as to say a competitive list with 1 Guijia is impossible. As for the best possible list with two Guijia, you'd be looking at something like this but I wouldn't be caught dead with it at a tournament. Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 4 GŪIJIĂ MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CCW. (2 | 88) GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. () GŪIJIĂ MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CCW. (2 | 88) GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. () CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) CELESTIAL GUARD Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) BÀO TROOP (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29) GROUP 2 1 NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) 6 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army
I came up with this: Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 4 SUN TZE Lieutenant (Advanced Command) Boarding Shotgun, 2 Nanopulsers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 60) GŪIJIĂ MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CCW. (2 | 88) GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. () GŪIJIĂ MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CCW. (2 | 88) GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. () KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) 4.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army It comes with a bunch of caveats though. I think playing two Guijia basically necessitates a first turn alpha strike, which means you have to guarantee going first and a deployment advantage. That's why I think Sun Tze is the only way to make this work -- you need every advantage Strategos offers, and you need to make a first turn strike so devastating that it can't possibly be recovered from. Tell your opponent to turn around for your hidden deployment (even though you have none, iirc this is still legal), and hold your two Guijia in reserve, ideally out of sight. After your opponent deploys all of his models (Strategos L2 means he can't reserve), determine the weakest possible point on your opponent's side of the board and drop your first Guijia down to take it. Then, as your opponent gasps, drop your second Guijia down in another potential assault position and laugh at him. Take advantage of the fact you can't have your order pool drained if you have only one combat group (my complaint about the above list is that if I saw it go first, I would strategic command token 100% of the time) and also make use of the Celestial Guard Smoke LGL to help advance your Guijia. It's probably worth it to declare a coordinated order to move your Guijia 6 inches and toss smoke down on the first turn, since you have an extra command Token and a Regular lieutenant order. Play to the strengths of your Guijia (the fact you have 11 armor in cover, for example, which makes most ammo types literally bounce off of you). Then at the end of your turn, command token again to drop them both in Suppressive Fire in cover at angles that is is very hard to deal with them from so anyone shooting at them is at a -6 for cover + suppressive against a BS14 HMG, and they still have 8+3 armor for ARM + cover. If the enemy can't deal with them or shrink your order pool to nothing at that points, you've won, but if they have stuff to deal with TAGs (like any list should), you'll lose at least one of them during the other team's turn. I would never play this in a serious game though, I think. If you lose both Guijia without killing basically 2/3 to 3/4 of their army, including all of their pieces that can do stuff, you won't have anything to do stuff with because they'll beeline for your very exposed Lieutenant.
Sadly guijia is not worth. In my opinion it cost too much. If you want to be competitive, in button games, you will have to focus on protecting it. For a similar role the Yan Huo hmc is better ( 2 wounds but can hide more). Hey i'm not saying guijia is bad as a porfile, i'm just saying Yu Jing don't have enought worth units to fuel a 88 points tag and activate beacons for example. Is the main problem, if you look for example haqquis, they can do with it, with his maghariba. Going with 2 guijia on 300 points is too tryhard in my opinion ( evan with kuang shi marea). Sorry.
I'm of the opinion that the base price of TAGs is a tad too high while several TAGs with special gear are more appropriately priced (that is; base price too high, special gear price too low). Guijia doesn't have special gear. That said, the notion that a list with a single Guijia can't be competitive is pure and utter nonsense. Support the Guijia properly. Get Armand to take care of exposed TR HMGs. Possibly a Guijia sniper for a bit more suppressive action. Ninja hacker has never killed anyone who didn't deserve it. Then let the Guijia stomp stuff that's a bit too heavy for a Su-Jian or a bit too far away from a Hsien/Hac Tao or that's got a bit too high-powered weapons for either of the above (ARM 8 plus cover is very good against sniper and HMG AROs where the Su-Jian's ARM of 5 is only decent). Still, I do think the Guijia should be lower 80's or even high 70's - much closer to the Maghriba TBH.
Why no love for the double tortoises? Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 2 GŪIJIĂ Lieutenant MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CCW. (3 | 88) GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. () GŪIJIĂ MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CCW. (2 | 88) GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. () NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) CELESTIAL GUARD (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) 5.5 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army
I'm not saying guijia is usless, only you have cheaper similar options. Ofc guijia is the strongest but also the more expensive. In kill kill missions is worth to pay it but in specialist focused missions I prefer to save point to have more orders than building a list based on protecting guijia. It's possible ( recently i played with a victory a supplies gema with guijia pilot taking on coffin). I agree with you @Mathamori, the problem is guijia is too expensive for being a vanilla tag with just an AP sword. It can work, sure your oponent don't expect it, but if you confront a preapred one or just a strong hacking list you will have trouble. If at least corvus give fireteam duo to guijia
This, a lot. A Su-Jian is faster, has a better loadout for midfield engagements, the same BS, you don't really lose any of the size advantages of the Guijia in terms of vaulting because you have climbing plus, and you're not vulnerable to anti-TAG hacking like Expel or Overlord. It's less tanky though, so I would probably try to hide it in the reactive turn. A Guijia can fire Explosive or AP/Shock ammo in every reactive F2F, but a Su-Jian has 2 Panzerfaust shots, so you have to make them count. Yu Jing just has too many interesting HI options to make TAGs very appealing. The Hac Tao, Hsien and Yan Huo are decent armor HI with 2 wounds who bring more specialized equipment/abilities to the game (TO Camo, MSV2 and overwhelming firepower). TAGs feel like machetes in a game about surgery -- it can be fun to use them sometimes, but they're not usually the best tool for the job.
The problem is that Guijias don't have a mitigative factor that Maghariba Guards has, like Heavyweight and S8 that is basically give a strict limitation to mobility of one models. Guijia can still slip up into (big enought) corridors while Maggie are get stucked on the front gate for example. The only problem for Guijia imo is that basically she's doesn't offer much interesting option, plain and simple. She doesn't have Stealth as O-yoroi does, She doesn't have KHD pilot and HRMC like Szalamandra does, heck even Lizard are still much more interesting thanks to HGL. She's just too plain, makes it far less interesting than other options.
From my own experience, the mitigative factors on size with regards to movement and the mitigative factor of heavy weight doesn't really exist. Nearly all corridors or bridges I've seen will either be large enough for both Maghriba and Guijia or too small for either - you have to really design terrain with the intent to block Maghriba (and only Maghriba) in order to achieve this. Additionally, terrain that's got access points that TAGs can use are... rare... making Heavyweight a bit of a non-issue (sort of how Zero-G for the nearly all tables is a non-bonus - YMMV, but so far I've actually never seen a table that's got Zero-G terrain, neither IRL or on the Internet, that wasn't forced to have it due to the BOW campaign). I'm not saying that these do not exist, but I'm saying emphatically that those advantages are not worth a 10 point (12%) discount. The Guijia is solid. Very very solid. I've been hoping that they'd emphasise this a bit more with say... Total Immunity and a point lower ARM. I do think that the biggest problem (besides being a bit overpriced) with the Guijia (and besides residing in a faction filled to the brim with solid and reliable HI) is that it is a Maghriba or Raicho. Infinity doesn't have very many units that are basically carbon copies, not even Aquila-Hsien or Hac Tao-Swiss are as much carbon copies as Maggy-Raicho-Guijia, and Infinity doesn't have many TAGs at all yet they managed to make three of them nearly identical. It's a bit sad and CB has proven with every single release that they can and will do much more interesting game design than that - so here's to hoping these three gets a redesign.
I have found the Guijia to be effective in ways that the su jian is not. It's much more effective as a fire platform due to it's larger size and ability to gain LoF to enemy models much easier, as well as full burst AP or Shock ammo. It also is its own specialist delivery system, great for missions like Safe Area where you need points in a quadrant and want a specialist in btb with the objective at the end of the game.
While we are busy trashing the Gujia I thought I'd point out how doable 2 O-yoroi lists are... Japanese Sectorial Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 DOMARU Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 25) O-YOROI HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (2 | 83) O-YOROI PILOT Contender / Pistol, CCW. () O-YOROI HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (2 | 83) O-YOROI PILOT Contender / Pistol, CCW. () KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
Dual Guijia──────────────────────────────────────────────────GROUP 1 10 4 GŪIJIĂ Lieutenant MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CCW. (3 | 88) GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. () GŪIJIĂ MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CCW. (2 | 88) GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. () NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)GROUP 2 2 2 2 KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17) KEISOTSU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) 6 SWC | 300 PointsOpen in Infinity Army i haven't yet had the chance to run this (don't have that many tags) but it does have the benefit of a lot of smoke coverage to protect your guija
How many people here are at a competitive level where units are being locked out? 5%? Probably less. If you need to ask for a competitive list you probably aren't at a level where you need to worry about it.
Your list has 1 combat group with 10 units in it. Number of combat groups is open information. I'm not sure if this will do much, but if you exchange your courtesy lists after deployment, it can affect something. Although I don't know if it's legal to ask for tidbits of open information before you both share courtesy lists.
Not only legal, but you shouldn't have to ask. Courtesy lists are shared after deployment because you might be "reserving" one of the models on it, and before the model is on the table your opponent isn't privvy to what that model is. However, the advice was regarding using clever use of obfuscation to hide what the "reserve" models are.
I don't think it's open information until deployment is complete, so if your opponent tallies your points and sees only 130 or so on the table, they'll assume and plan for a big hidden deployment unit like a Hac Tao, or an Oniwaban + a ninja.
Strongly disagree. Competitive play with a generic ARM 8 MulitHMG TAG is totally possible (gotta say 2 Guijia is not going to do well though, original poster). YJ happens to have some great forward escort units, too. 3 STR has the resilience to make it through a turn of being the enemy's main target... which is what I tend to use TAGs for mostly anyways, bullet magnets. HI, even the Su-Jian, cannot survive being your opponent's main focus for long. For survival/kill points or area-claiming missions, TAGs are great. They're also "sweepers" to remove troublesome ARo units like TR HMGs, MSV2 snipers with smoke units nearby, etc. The Guijia will do a fine job for all of these. I used to also think TAGs were outclasses by YJ's HI, but I' starting to realize that short of an HI link, TAGs are the better for the kill/don't be killed or stand-here-claim-sectors missions. Here's an example list that has the Guijia, several escorts/specialists, and decent ARO power from multiple TR HMGs plus the Guijia's gun. Yes, You Can Have A Great Guijia List ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 GŪIJIĂ Lieutenant MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CCW. (3 | 88) GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. () GŬILÁNG Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31) GŬILÁNG (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 26) NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) PHEASANT IMPERIAL AGENT (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 29) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
I find TAGs to be better at non-kill missions, where opponents are less likely to be equipped for them. Also, in kill missions killing a TAG is how they score while in objective missions killing the TAG is counter-productive to scoring. The advantage of TAGs in kill missions is that you can use it aggressively for two STR and then pull it totally back for survival, making all the turns/effort to wound it score 0 points. Territory hold is sort of in-between. I could see behavior with the TAG for scoring over a normal list but I lack experience. Per-turn score ones you'd probably want to score early and use your speed and cost advantage to cancel the territory they hold, flipping 1 territory with the TAG and holding another with some SK can be enough each turn. End-game scoring I would probably keep it in my DZ and take potshots with the HMG to save the STR for the last turn, then try to flip whatever they already have.
