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15 orders USARF Listbuilding is Un-fun or Boring or a Frustrating Puzzle

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Nimlothautle, Sep 15, 2020.

  1. Nimlothautle

    Nimlothautle Well-Known Member

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    NO DISCUSSION OF POWER LEVEL PLEASE
    upload_2020-9-15_8-55-43.png

    Let's talk about how hard it is to get USARF to 15 orders. Above is a typical setup for a partial N3 ITS list. It has the Classic Grunt Core, Marauder Haris, Foxtrot button pushers, a smoke throwing warband and a Traktor Mul for fun spec firing. We are still 57 points from maximum despite almost hitting our SWC. You could literally add a BJ T2 Sniper and still not be within 3 of the 300 points limit. I think you can see that regardless of the power level of USA or it's units, USA at 15 orders is going to look same-y. Your most expensive options: Minutmen HMG, Unknown Ranger, and Van Zant will need to be taken every time in some combination. The Black Jacks are actually wonderfully thrifty and you can easily have run 20 orders with two of them before, they don't make for good list thickeners.


    It's well known in these parts Limited insertion USA is hilariously boring with Limited insertion, with only one possible list that can fit 10 in 300*. 15 orders USA is going to a slight more varied version of that where you choose which combinations of big boys you have at the top. Choose 2: MM HMG, Van Zant, UR. You will constantly be trying to figure out ways to cut down orders 16, 17 and 18 to 15 without hitting the SWC cap.

    Again this isn't a complaint about powerlevel. USA was always a middling faction that took pride in the fact that it didn't go in for fancy visual mods that would only bloat up our thrifty flamethower heavy Amercians, and I love them for that, but trying to fit these thrifty-ass profiles into a 15 order hole is just sad and frustrating.

    My Solution: Tac window shouldn't apply to USA :D. As an Amercian I can assure you my Cheeseburger-y ass can't fit through a window anyway.

    *I never tried to do this and there may be more than one list.


    A positive Request: Show me some USARF 15 order lists that are varied and fun and prove me wrong.

    NO DISCUSSION OF POWER LEVEL PLEASE
     
  2. Ghost87

    Ghost87 Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry. CB will make this easier by making all units more expensive :D
     
  3. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Obligatory: it's a fool's errand to theory craft this without N4 profiles and costs...
     
  4. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Oops, the first one was 16 orders.

    How about this then:

    USAriadna Ranger Force
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    GRUNT Lieutenant Rifle, Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
    GRUNT HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21)
    GRUNT (Marksmanship LX) Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
    GRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    GRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    DOZER (Traktor Mul Control Device) Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    TRAKTOR MUL Katyusha MRL / Electric Pulse. (1 | 11)
    DESPERADO Boarding Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / 2 Heavy Pistols, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
    BLACKJACK T2 Sniper, Submachine Gun, Chest Mines / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 36)
    VAN ZANT AP Rifle / Heavy Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 38)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    MARAUDER Molotok / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
    MARAUDER (Fireteam: Haris) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    MARAUDER Paramedic (MediKit) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    #4 Knauf, Sep 15, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
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  5. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    That Grunt team is crying out for a Rosie, UKR, Bill, or AP/MM1 Minutewoman to act as a short/medium range spearhead.
     
  6. Nimlothautle

    Nimlothautle Well-Known Member

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    This list has 16 orders unfortunately. But it basically shows that, yes, you will be having to eat your greens and take more big boys to come close to fitting. I think part of the problem is Foxtrots, Marauders and Minutemen are too cheap. They probably need something added to their profiles to bring up the cost and differentiate them from Grunts. Either that or 1-man Grunt Core's with all the wild cards seems like the future.
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    From what we've seen of CodeOne and previewed N4 units, the Blackjack AP HMG is likely to be dropping to 1.5 SWC, which lets you take two of them and still take a fully equipped Marauder or Minutemen Core.

    In terms of the original list, some obvious changes to bump of the average unit cost would be:
    • Replace the Desperado with a Maverick Boarding Shotgun, it does most of what the Desperado can do but can also see through it's own Smoke.
    • Replace a Grunt with a Minutemen in the Core, probably the FO or the Marksmanship X Visor.
    • As above, but Rosie.
    • I like the Grunt LGL Lieutenant, but the Minutemen AP HMG LT costs the same SWC.
     
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  8. Commoner1

    Commoner1 Well-Known Member

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    My guess is that n4 will "force" you into Marauder Cores and Blackjacks to be able to spend all your points without resorting to Minutemen.
     
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  9. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Yup, that was my bad. I've changed it around a bit, but you are probably already familiar with the general concept.
     
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  10. OrphanOfToast

    OrphanOfToast Heated Bread

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    I'm not an ariadna player but this seems decent in N3 terms (keep in mind if camo really does go up, then this wont be an option):

    USAriadna Ranger Force
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    WILD BILL Rifle / 2 MULTI Pistols, Knife. (0 | 27)
    GRUNT (Marksmanship LX) Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
    GRUNT HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21)
    GRUNT Lieutenant Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
    GRUNT Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    DESPERADO Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
    MARAUDER (Fireteam: Haris) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    MARAUDER (Multispectral Visor L1) Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 26)
    MARAUDER Molotok / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
    VAN ZANT AP Rifle / Heavy Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 38)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1
    FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    HARDCASE FRONTIERSMAN Tactical Bow, Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)

    5.5 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    That being said, yeah it looks like USA will struggle to meet the 15 order requirement without including some bloated profiles.
     
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  11. KujakuDM

    KujakuDM Vigilo Confido

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    Uh... building a 15 order list seems like a waste of time until we have the new lists/points.
     
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  12. Nimlothautle

    Nimlothautle Well-Known Member

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    This is probably part of my problem. The Grunt link was just plan fun to run and changing to a a default Marauder link because I have to make weight feels bad.

    A note on the AP HMG LT: USA has some limited and obvious LT options, plus a terrifically bad CoC option. I don't like running this LT since linked DA sniper crits mean you can end your game on order 1. In N4 with crits moving to an extra roll on top of that, I'm not sure how it maths out, but I think it's even more likely the MM disappears off the board without the chance to medic him. I generally run the LGL Grunt because it feels the least bad without putting them in danger for LoL.

    EDIT: A List built with suggestions for a Maruder Core Link, MSV1 BSG Maverick tricks, and assuming the 1.5 SWC AP HMG on the Black Jack.


    USAriadna Ranger Force
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1
    MARAUDER Molotok / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
    ROSIE Light Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    MARAUDER (Multispectral Visor L1) Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 26)
    MARAUDER Paramedic (MediKit) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    MARAUDER Lieutenant Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    BLACKJACK AP HMG, Chest Mines, D.E.P. / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (2 | 36)
    FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    MAVERICK Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1
    BLACKJACK T2 Sniper, Submachine Gun, Chest Mines / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 36)
    FOXTROT Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    DOZER (Traktor Mul Control Device) Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    TRAKTOR MUL (Minesweeper) Electric Pulse. (0 | 5)
    TRAKTOR MUL (Minesweeper) Electric Pulse. (0 | 5)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    6.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    FD1 LT with it being the only profile on the board that can be the LT is a bit scary, but hopefully our Opponent is having the same issue. Rosie could also be replaced with BSG Marauder for the same price and you would gain the ability to plant defensive mines after taking the center. Sniper Foxtrot is something I wouldn't have taken in N3, but is a good surpise ARO. I think the biggest issue is a lack of mine layer or camo shotguns in the list to slow down a turn one alpha on your core link. I don't think the Marauder HRL should be ARO'ing turn one with it's short range band. So enemy warbands throwing smoke may also be a worry if you are going second. Dropping one FO foxtrot and the Warcor for a BSG foxtrot would cost us button pushers and a disposable ARO, but may be worth it.
     
    #12 Nimlothautle, Sep 15, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    You don't have to change to a Marauder Core. I gave you a bunch of suggestions for making your existing Grunt Core better and more expensive, as did other posters.
     
  14. Shrooms

    Shrooms Well-Known Member

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    I’m hoping that Blackjacks get some extra skills to justify a price bump for them. For them to be mini-TAGs would be awesome (and aligned with Aridnan HI which is also lighter than normal HI) but I know that is unlikely.
    Dam +1 and Burst +1 (massive weapons with belt feed on HMG after all) would be good. At the moment I find it odd that the MM AP HMG hits as hard as the BJ AP HMG... (From a mini and immersion perspective).
     
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  15. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Also: 10 orders/5 orders split is probably kind of a sucker game with a 15-trooper cap. Assuming your second Group has capable units in it and not just filler to be swapped in when somebody in Group 1 dies, an 8 orders/7 orders split seems to be best for a lot of forces.
     
  16. SpectralOwl

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    Depends on what you bring and how you plan to use it. AD demands a reasonably fat order pool since you still want to do something with that group if you don't drop the Ranger(s), and you want to have enough orders left to do something with your AD in late game. Having a smaller pool for your Doctor's reserved use might not be bad in Devil Dog lists either if Code One Paramedic rules stick around.
     
  17. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    A doctor works well in a second group (and a doctor on a bike with smoke, even more maybe). A roadblock unit or two fits in there well too: drop mines, raise Suppressive Fire, etc.
     
  18. Kreslack

    Kreslack Unknown Ranger lead the way!

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    I'm hoping to see a few upgrades on several USAriadnan units once N4 releases. As they do have a few pricey units, but alot of cheap fodder that doesn't jive as well with the new 15 limit. I usually like taking a few heavy hitters in every USARF force I build. (Last week the devil dog managed to kill an Avatar in CC. Twice)

    Looking at that first list. It looks like so much filler and little substance. Like many have said you could slot in quite a few of the more expensive options into the grunt link.

    My biggest hope is to see the Minutemen (and all 1 wound Ariadnan HI) get bumped to NWI in N4. I'd also like to see the Unknown Ranger get Shock Immunity, but I'm really not expecting that one to happen.

    Think we might see minelayer on foxtrots, though I think they and Hardcases are also going to go up in price with little to no other changes.

    Mimetism on Airborne would also be fantastic. But they likely are getting a pretty solid CC buff already.

    I'm suspecting Wild Bill might go full Wild Card. Esspecially if N4 cuts back on the universal characters like him and Aida, putting them in their sectorals and the general merc pool only.

    I'm excited to see what USARF has coming. Hoping for some nice shake ups and tweaks to bring them up to work well in the new edition.
     
    #18 Kreslack, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  19. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    So far, from looking at ARMY 7, the only real changes are UKR getting better, Van Zant getting NCO, Marauder Sniper getting +1B, and Minutemen getting a LT option with +1 Command Token.

    Downside, so far that's it unless links really open up.
     
  20. TheDiceAbide

    TheDiceAbide Thank you for your compliance.
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    My USARF lists have generally been around 15 orders as it was, I don't think it's necessarily going to be a big issue, though it will mean I probably own too many grunt infiltrators.
     
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