Greetings, After only having scratched the surface of what could be possible with the 1.1.1 change and preemptive skill declaration, I can see some of the concern that were raised about preemptive skills and template weapons. I present you, the fake template baits (One of the many wonky interactions of preemptive declarations) - - - - - Please note that the actual profiles are not important in the example, only showing the problematic interaction, please do not be pendantic over it. - - - - - Zhanshi 1, Zhanshi 2 and Zhanshi 3 are linked. Zhanshi 3 has a Multi Sniper Rifle Fusilier has a Missile Launcher Fusilier is inside of a Smoke (I know PanO doesn't have smoke, this could be any trooper with a impact template weapon) Active player: Fusilier Missile Launcher declares BS-Attack with Zhanshi 3 as main target, using Blast Mode. The template overlaps Zhanshi 2, Zhanshi 3 and the Camo trooper. Reactive Player: Zhanshi 3 declares a BS Attack to oppose the Fusilier. Dodges with the other 2 members. Active Player: Fusilier idles. Result: Fusilier's Shot is invalid, Zhanshi 3 Shot is invalid, the Zhanshi link is broken, the Camo trooper is revealed. - - - - - Alternate Declarations Zhanshi 1, Zhanshi 2 and Zhanshi 3 are linked. Zhanshi 3 has a Multi Sniper Rifle Fusilier has a Missile Launcher Fusilier is inside of a Smoke (I know PanO doesn't have smoke, this could be any trooper with a impact template weapon) Active player: Fusilier Missile Launcher declares BS-Attack with Zhanshi 3 as main target, using Blast Mode. The template overlaps Zhanshi 2, Zhanshi 3 and the Camo trooper. Reactive Player: Zhanshi 1, Zhanshi 2, Zhanshi 3 and the Camo trooper declares Dodge. Active Player: Fusilier Moves out of the smoke, then back inside the smoke. Result: Fusilier's gets an (edit in italic) free shot at all the targets versus their Dodge The same situation can be recreated with a Direct Template Weapon - - - - - Outside of this being insanely unintuitive, it's all perfectly legal declarations of skills, I can't imagine having to teach these kinds of interactions to players, it's easy to see how having these kinds of declaration be valid is a confusing mess. Edit: I thought the shot could not go off, but with further reading and exchanges with other players in https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/1-1-1-no-lof-preemptive-direct-template.39894/#post-407658 it seems like the way smoke is worded that this example above is not only unintuitive, but could actually be a viable shot. (Yikes)
Wait, but if there's no attack on a resolution step, how can they dodge? They are not a target of attack (and not affected by template) so their aro becomes invalid and changes to idle. And nothing happens.
Hmm. I think it may be unresolved whether this would work. Because: When the Fusilier declares BS Attack, you have to specify the point from which he is shooting from. A) Can he declare the shot from a point outside the smoke (which he does not yet occupy)? B) If he declares the shot from inside the smoke, then moves outside the smoke, does the shot succeed? Or does it fail because it is still being executed from a point where there isn't LoF to the target? I don't think we yet have answers to either question. Note it's a different scenario from where the reactive trooper is the one declaring the speculative shot. The reactive trooper doesn't move, so he can declare he will shoot from his existing position. Then if the active trooper moves out of smoke, he shoots the active trooper from the position he declared he would shoot from.
They perform and idle, but they still declared a Dodge. Declaring a Dodge is what breaks fireteam and breaks Camouflaged state, not the actual resolution of the skills.
The problem is that the declaration of the template attack lets the Zanshis declare Dodge. It's the declaration of skills that break fireteams and camo. Even if the skills are converted to idle at resolution, Dodge was still declared.
You say the Fusilier gets an unopposed shot - do you mean that the Zhanshi don’t get to shoot back? Because it sounds like you’re saying they don’t get to make their dodge rolls as FtF.
I think the need to declare a point on the movement path for attacks significantly hampers preemptive BS declarations.
Sorry, they do get their Dodge, I didn't mean unopposed as in no FtF, but as in no danger. I'll edit to reflect this!
Not for preemptive BS Attack AROs. We know that you have to specify the point you're shooting from at declaration, but not the point you're shooting to. So the ARO trooper can just wait to see where the active trooper moves, and then choose to shoot at the point of movement most favourable to the reactive trooper. If it hampers preemptive BS declarations by the active trooper, that's probably a good thing :-) If it does hamper it; the discussion in the direct template thread suggests it might not.
I was specifically responding to the active turn missile launcher stuff in this thread. I agree that the reactive scenario is a bit different.
OR, through some magic, are both of BS Attacks rendered valid, validating each-other because being the target of a BS Attack through smoke allows the Zhanshi to declare an attack at -6, and, therefore being the target of an attack, the Fusilier shoots back also at -6 :-P (mostly joking)
I believe this can happen if you very carefully stack mimetism, cover, range, surprise attack, and suppressive fire mods on models with BS 12 or less. Both models are on BS 0, causing the shots to auto-miss, but if the surprise or suppression mods were canceled, then both models would be firing on BS 3.
I'm pretty sure this doesn't work because you have to place templates (and thus choose your firing position) at declaration, unlike with non-template weapons.
I don't know whether it's transferable to N4 or if the logic behind it is sound on its own, but from what I can remember of my er... debates... with IJW on this topic I think that while the attacks automatically miss, they aren't cancelled like if they were out or range, so the MODs would still apply even if the shots have no chance of hitting.
