Holoprojector L1 and 360˚ Visor

Is your argument that a figure is not a trooper or am I misunderstanding you?

 

I am arguing that the imitated model is not actually the real trooper. They appear to be different. The LOF rules state that the LOF of a figure or Marker is Open Information. The figure on the table is a Sekban.

It says nothing about the LOF of the real trooper being Open Information.

The LOF of the imitated model and the real trooper are different. I don't need to tell you what the real model can see or not.

But I have to use the real profile when taking actions.

 

My best answer to this, is that I retract what I said about Automatic Equipment and skills, due to what Tom McTrouble said but I give other arguments later in the thread, which I encourage you to read.

 

Fair dues, thread is very active and I'm trying to catch up :)

 

Fair dues there's a lot of repetition ;)

 

Yes, plenty of repetition indeed.

I think at this point there's not meaning to continue the debate. Positions are fixed and known and I hope that @psychoticstorm or someone else involved in the FAQ 2.0 project to bring these two points with them;
* Do we mark 180º on 360 Visor models?
* Is the Trooper's LOF hiding under a Holoecho's, Holoprojector's, Camo marker's, or Impersonation marker open information?

Regardless of what our respective personal opinion are, I think we've proven that these questions deserve and need answers.

 

@Zewrath So you'd consider it a "dick move" to deduce that what appeared to be a Sekban was in fact a Hafza by using LoF information?

 

Good argument, now I also see the logic behind using the HD as an example.
The weird thing is that I actually agree with you a long step of the way.

• "While in Holoprojector L1 state, players don't place the Holoprojector L1 bearer's model but the model of any other trooper (known as the imitated model) fitting the Holoprojector L1 Requirements and declaring which weapon option it is replicating from the imitated model's Troop Profile."

And

• "When you replace the imitated model with the real one, you are required to share all Open Information relative to that trooper."

and finally,

• "The presence of troopers disguised by Holoprojector (see Infinity. Human Sphere)."

which seems to be in line with the same logic as HD units, in regards to "not really existing"


My main contention in all of this is 360 LOF Arc. Even if I'll grant you that the LOF of the real trooper is private, then I don't see anything that allows you to grant the 360 degree arc, because I don't see how this is not benefitting from the equipment. With regards to the rules from the 360 Visor I've quoted ad nauseam.

 

Aaaand you perfectly demonstrate that your very, very, feeble mind doesn't understand arguments. Keep being a low hanging fruit mate.

 

Because to actually benefit from it you would be able to get actions from it (ie declare AROs). Merely claiming it (marking it) isn't actually a real benefit. In the same was as deploying a Kanren as a Shikami and saying 'I have ODD so you'd be on -12' isn't actually a real benefit (despite the fact you may dissuade your opponent from an undesired course of action).

The marked LOF is a property of the figure, not the trooper.

You're being overly legalistic by saying 'but you can only (and indeed must) mark 360 degrees if you have the skill'. The purpose of marking LOF is to simplify gameplay not to limit the options of Holo 1.

Moreover you can readily instead interpret the rules as saying 'always mark 180 degree LOF'. Which makes your whole issue pointless.

We all agree that a Hafza holod as a Sekban shouldn't be trivially easy to reveal. So we can just choose the interpretation that allows us to get to that point:

Mark all bases with 180 degree arcs (which inherently also marks 360 degrees) and be done with it. And for practicality don't worry if someone chooses to do something else for aesthetic reasons, so long as it's easy to preserve the facing when the imitated model is replaced by the real one.

It's a plausible interpretation and it works. I prefer that over a plausible interpretation that doesn't.

 

A minor note, but certain conditions can disable Automatic Equipment. Practically I am not aware of any conditions or combinations that both disables Automatic Equipment and makes your trooper's LOF relevant. Only Unconscious does so and leaves the model on the table and I am not aware of any skill or ability where hitting a model that won't respond in the back. However, it is technically true that
* A Sekban who is Unconscious is unable to use 360 Visor and has a 180 LOF (that they are also unable to use)
* An Isolated Warcor will not be able to use their Aerocam.

So while I think it's most honest and aesthetically pleasing to paint a TR HMG REM's LOF as being 360, there are situations where they lose said LOF.

 

1. False. Deploying in Camo state while being a holo1, would be a direct benefit, without doing anything. Getting a 360 arc is no different.

2. Also not correct. for the 100th time, it's granted by a piece of equipment, which you do not possess.

3. Not really. As I've demonstrated multiple times, they are referring to the LoF Arc, which is a rule that exists under the rules for LOF. The purpose of marking LOF is to simplify gameplay by always displaying the limits of what your model can and cannot see, in order to avoid discussions.

4. Fully agreed

 

I know my mind is fine. Do you even understand that the two circumstances described are equivalent? Or, for you, are they not equivalent simply because making them equivalent would mean that you are wrong, and winning arguments is more important than truth?

 

Is the Aerocam comms equipment? I thought the FAQ said that it provided the 360 visor rule.

 

Nevertheless when Unconscious their LOF Arc is 180 degrees.

So you need to mark 180 degrees LOF on all your 360 visor troops (if you're being absolutely RAW).

Which gets us back to the same conclusion.

 

*sigh*

Which is why the 180 marking is the most pragmatic solution. It still doesn't get around the fact that you can't place a model with a 360 degree arc, marked or not.

Are there anything else to add at this point? This thread is going in circles, only interrupted by the occasional low tier posts from Hecaton.

 

I love how you say you know your mind is fine, when you then go on to demonstrate that you did not, in fact, understood a word of what I wrote. You're trying to hard bruh.

 

Every time I ask you a question, you avoid answering it and try to malign my intelligence. If you won't explain your viewpoint, you can't expect others to take it seriously. It comes off as you being too scared to take a firm position as you're sure that if you do your arguments will be shredded.

 

Make a thread about Intent. I dare you, bruh!