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What would you ideal 'resolution' to the Uprising fluff be?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by stargorger, Apr 30, 2018.

  1. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Well I like characters, but they don’t necessarily need to be recreations. There also doesn’t need to be a lot of them. JSA always had the characters and we even lost one to the CA. It’s not like YJ will become like Steel Phalanx, ever. No worries on that at all. To me characters just seem add a bit more story into he game in some way.
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Tohaa have 2 characters.
    Yu Jing have 2 as well.*
    Nomads and CA have 5.
    Pan-O have 6
    Haqq have 7
    Ariadna have 8

    There's plenty of room to not turn Yu Jing into Aleph and the only concern would be how IA turns out. (*)There is some deception given how many mercenary characters there are, which inflates the numbers somewhat if you're still suffering from Fantasy Battles 5th edition rules.

    The crux is implementation. Regardless of which I think cramming IA full of bonafide heroes is a good idea. It's easier to tell a story with heroes than it is with an anonymized military backed by a militia. If we want Yu Jing to have a face and not be relegated to the Antagonists.
     
  3. Eldritch

    Eldritch Well-Known Member

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    I'll tell you now. If they "cram IA full of bonafide heroes" you will get nothing else new on that army list. Nothing.
     
    #63 Eldritch, May 5, 2018
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
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  4. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

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    It is possible to have Hero profiles without being unique.

    Tomcats and Sekban stand out as heroic units.
     
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  5. Eldritch

    Eldritch Well-Known Member

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    Thats fine but I'm pretty sure everyone spent the last page or more talking about named unique characters.

    And you should probably say heroic profiles rather than hero profiles.

    And I kinda disagree that singling out either named characters or specific unit types as heroic helps the faction as a whole with the evil flanderization issues. It just sets it up so that trash writing can call them exceptions and then make the faction as a whole even more grimderp in contrast.
     
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  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I'd like for the Invincible Army to have several units that are heroic in their fluff. Ideally, all the new units, but that's probably asking a bit too much. I want at least one unit who looks at the Uprising and says, HELL NO. One unit that is all over the newschannels, regardless of nation, for putting their power-armored bodies between innocents and assholes shooting at people. Doesn't matter that those are Japanese kindergartners, or Chinese, or Koreans, or even PanO kids (on Paradiso).

    But I need to agree with @Eldritch , a "hero profile" is a singular individual, "heroic profiles" are units.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The game is already crammed full of heroic units. Take a list containing none of the ISS units and point randomly. That's a heroic unit. Zhanshi are heroic units, notably for protecting Yu Jing from Pan-O invasion and overcoming the odds in the face of Pan-O's elite units. Simply designating a unit as heroic doesn't cut it at this point. You need to point at how.

    @Eldritch you're going to have to provide some substance to the claim that IA will get nothing else if they introduce heroes (plural, individual). The numbers do not support your claim.
     
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  8. Eldritch

    Eldritch Well-Known Member

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    CB's release rate alone pretty much guarantees that you won't get anything else if you go "cramming IA full of bonafide heroes" in the context of the conversation back when you said that, which is to say, unique named character profiles. Well it either guarantees you get nothing else OR it guarantees it will take at least 3 years OR it guarantees that no one else gets model releases for a year.

    And I'll note back when you said that you discussed the number of character profiles vanilla factions have... as if to justify a large number of character for a sectorial. At a quick eyeball it seems most sectorials have 2 characters, a number have no characters discounting mercs, which I will, because heroic mercs in IA is even less helpful here.

    The sectorials that are "crammed full" of unique named characters frequently have... issues. The new JSA is among the upper end of sectorials for number of named characters and I don't like where it's at for the dependence on including them in lists and where it's left if you DON'T include them in your list. But the go to "crammed full" sectorial is steel phalanx, and that is really NOT where I want to be at with half the damn options being named characters and the remainder if you ignore them being a very short list indeed.

    Even Vanilla Yu Jing itself now is dangerously close to becoming sectorial sized, I mean, its not "fun sized" (or rather actual sectorial sized) like Tohaa, but I think it's the next smallest "major" vanilla faction list now.

    Yes, Yu Jing probably needs a few named characters to be on par with other factions... for having similar numbers of named character options and basically nothing else, even IA might need a few for that (but apparently it's A OK for at least 3 sectorials to have NONE so you know...). But there isn't room or time in CBs release schedule to "cram it full" with them.

    And personally for replacing the lost flexibility from Yu Jing's vanilla list in particular I want actual unit profiles things that might have AVA over 1 and have the sorts of multiple flexible variants that unnamed troops get rather than the inflexible very short to non-existent profile variations that named characters get. I'd make that trade on basically any and every model/profile release CB can manage to get their slow moving act together around making for Yu Jing or IA in a sensibly short enough time scale to be remotely useful (I'm gonna pretend a year is quick enough. It probably isn't.).

    Oh, and then theres the whole "named characters are likely to turn up tied to two other models you very possibly don't want in dire foes packs" thing. So, lets not have a whole sectorials worth of new profiles at risk of that sort of pricing model.
     
    #68 Eldritch, May 5, 2018
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @Eldritch the numbers still aren't in your court. Yu Jing is not sectorial sized, it is still larger than many factions in number of profiles. The number of characters are still within reason for some 3 to 5 IA characters instead of the 0 you are crusading for. And last but not least, IA needs more than just 5 more unit options to make a full sectorial - with just 5 more it's tied for least amount of units, some 7 behind ISS and a few others.
    Characters are sufficiently different to not count for a pre-announcement unit. Hence at least 2 characters are likely.
     
  10. Eldritch

    Eldritch Well-Known Member

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    Why yes my numbers ARE wrong when you ignore what I actually said about Yu Jing's size and pick a different less correct size instead!

    Wow, again, I'm so wrong... a pity I actually said Yu Jing and IA might need a few named character profiles to bring them up to par, a pity I ONLY even entered this conversation when you started "crusading" for a named character per unit and a sectorial "crammed full" of named characters.

    I very well might prefer no named characters, they tend to be pretty bad one way or another, but I've made it clear I tolerate some and even can identify some amount of deficit in their current lack in Yu Jing. But I've explicitly stated that the idea I'm calling bad is the idea of cramming a list full of them.

    I do not think another steel phalanx is a solution for Yu Jings fluff problems, or its lost mechanical options, or a remotely good way to represent a vast national "reform" of its military since those should be made of something other than 9 specific named wanna be mary sues loosely inspired by someones pet preferences from a Koei video game.
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Christ, I'm beginning to sympathise with A Mao and Alphz...

    Eldritch, you probably need to take a breather. You're coming across really aggressive with little tolerance for anything. We're talking about opinions and possibilities. This is not a design meeting and neither you nor I have input in what's actually going to happen.
     
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  12. Eldritch

    Eldritch Well-Known Member

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    Yes. And when you misrepresent mine in order to pretend your's is better than it is I will correct you.

    How very dreadful of me.

    Or, you know, you could possibly just reconsider the whole "crammed full" thing OR you could stick to it and put together a direct argument defending it instead of trying to pretend my position is different so you can instead defend a much more reasonable and easier position like "can we just have a couple of named characters like (almost) everyone else?" that I really have no problem with.

    But don't come to me complaining that you feel attacked just because you were corrected right after you blatantly ignored and misrepresented what I actually said.
     
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  13. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I would appreciate it if the thread become less confrontational.
     
  14. Shango

    Shango Well-Known Member

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    It is the peoples that create the heroes. And heroes only appear in moments of unrest and uncertainties.
    The information transmitted to the peoples of Yu Jing is filtered and controlled. I would not understand why they would be worried about their future, and I would not understand why they would seek to embody values.
    It is more likely that the central government will communicate on the battles won while omitting the losses.
    I really think that "the Hero " is not at all in the DNA of Yu Jing who advocates more a homogeneous professional army competent and at the forefront of technology rather than tales of heroic acts personified.
    it's just my opinion.
     
  15. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    While that's fair, that doesn't preclude the inclusion in Infinity of the kind of "quiet background" Heroes which that kind of approach to soldiering would produce.

    Not individuals held up on a pedestal with their name in lights because of some specific case of extreme heroics, but those who have diligently done the correct thing despite being in bad situations and who are interesting for us, the external viewer, rather than those in the universe of Infinity.
     
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  16. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Logged on just to like this.

    Every Zuyong is an anonymous hero. JSA and JCB has given the game enough homages/rip-offs to last a decade. I'll puke at another recreation. Just make the list with an awareness of the how the game is played, and true to it's existing lore. That's all I want from IA. A competitive zuyong core list and some models.
     
  17. Shiwen

    Shiwen Commissar, Yu Jing Political Work Department

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    I know Yu Jing isn't the People's Republic of China, but the PRC has a long history of picking individual heroes to lionize in propaganda campaigns... martyrs and models who exemplified the ideals of the country and the ruling ideology, individuals who are made into household names and who other citizens attempt to emulate. You can see this in Infinity itself, in the original background of Asuka before she became Celty, where the Ministry of Information was doing this very thing. I'd like to see Yu Jing continue to present examples of that... not that the StateEmpire is a sci-fi clone of the People's Republic, but the latter offers a lot of rich material from which the former can draw.

    That statement made, I... don't much like named characters in my miniatures wargames, when I still played 40k I was energetically devoted to drafting my own backstories and models to counts-as in place of GW's characters, and I look agape in horror at Steel Phalanx.

    Not sure what the ideal balance between those two contradictory positions would be, for me. There's certainly room for named characters, but I'm definitely in the boat where you don't want a flood of Recreations, and you don't want to lock unique or vital capabilities behind named characters.

    Its getting too specific to match whatever CB will eventually do, but the ideal might be something like a Zuyong or Shang Ji with some non-revolutionary stat or equipment variations (Chain of Command), described as 'Zuyong Lei Feng, whose dedication to Party and StateEmpire were worthy of emulation by all subject-citizens, who took command when the Kempetai terrorists launched their vicious Uprising and slew his commanding officer, sacrificing himself to save children from the bombs of Tatenokai butchers', the description of martyrdom making clear that the unit represents less that specific now-gone person and more the model/martyr category, the regular hero of the Invincible Army, who has accomplished some great deed the Ministry of Information has swept up for its propaganda campaigns.
     
  18. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    The Steel Phalanx characters that I like are the ones who are not specifically recreated but who have been "given" the names of historic figures who they have (deliberately or otherwise) come to emulate.

    That's the kind of character I'd be happy to see in IS.

    They could be propaganda pieces, but they don't have to be.
     
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  19. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Did anybody outside the US hear about the nutcase who went to shoot up a Waffle House restaurant? The guy who was totally naked?

    There was a hero in that restaurant. The man who grabbed the nutcase's gun by the barrel, burning the crap out of his hand, swears up and down that he is not a hero, he grabbed the gun purely because he wanted to live.

    If I ever meet the man, I may have to take him to the Veteran's Home, or maybe a VA hospital. The person who did the act doesn't get to call himself a hero. In fact, the stronger he denies he did anything heroic, the more likely he actually is. It's the people around him, who are still alive because he acted, that make the decision as to who is a hero.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it was all over international news. But wasn't he only naked from waist down?
     
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