Hello all. This has been bought up before and was left unresolved. But I would like to make a case for the fact Trinity forces you to take 2 rolls (1 BTS+ 1 ARM) instead of 1 BTS. This is my argument: Trinity TRINITY (AHP) SHORT SKILL / ARO Attack, SWORD-2 REQUIREMENTS The target must be an enemy Hacker. EFFECTS In the Active Turn, the user may distribute three WIP Rolls among one or more targets. A successful Roll forces the target to make a BTS Roll versus Damage 16, while suffering the effects of Shock Special Ammunition. For each failed BTS Roll, the target loses one point of his Wounds/StructureAttribute. Critical hits with Trinity cause the target to lose one point of its Wounds/STRAttribute directly, bypassing the BTS Roll, and applying the effects of Shock Special Ammunition. The range of this program is the Hacker's Hacking Area. Quite simply put, all the effects of Shock special ammunition have ARM specifically written on the effects. And it specifically states in page 107 of the rules that "—if the Special Ammunition affects different Attributes— then their effects are not combined, but applied separately, forcing the target to make a separate Roll for each affected Attribute. For example, in the case of AP+E/M, the target must make a halved ARM Roll (due to AP Special Ammunition) and, additionally, a halved BTS Roll". Nowhere does it say that ARM is replaced with BTS. Trinity is listed as having "shock special ammo" in the infinity army builder and other offical infinity tables. Shock specifically affects ARM and not BTS. Hence the need to take 1 ARM and 1BTS roll. Am I correct in this?
It is poorly written, but the point was simply that it can make you go straight to Dead, bypassing Unconscious. It is supposed to be 3 WIP rolls, and each success causes a BTS roll, which can bypass the Unconscious/Dogged/NWI states.
So you are saying ARM is replaced by BTS for the effects? Where in the rules does it say that and if it was CB's intention can you confirm for me please?
As far as I know, Zhayedan, who has breaker rifle and marksmanship L2, forces to make 1bts roll for breaker and 1 arm roll for shock.
It does not say it directly in the rules, hence it being poorly written, but this was much discussed on the previous forums. I will see if I can find one of the old sources. Yes, that is a separate case.
Ok let me put it this way, are there any holes in my argument? I am sure it is supposed to be consistent with the ruling with the Zhayedan and marksmanship otherwise it would not make sense to allow for that case and not this
Some further reading: http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/45206-change-facing-vs-engaged/?page=2#comment-867112 http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/45473-trinity-shock/#comment-870231 I've gotta run, but some of these old debates might help you. Pay special attention to the posts where @ijw chimes in a quick response.
Ty Noble @macfergusson :) But @ijw posts are incorrect because Trinity does have an ammo type as seen in the army builder and official charts
Hacking rolls all go against BTS rather than ARM. Trinity adds the straight-to-dead effect of Shock. The Zhayedan example is different because it’s a BS Attack, not a Hacking Attack.
that logic can be retroactively applied here. Why can't a Hacking attack force ARM rolls? Is there anywhere in the rules that says it cant?
Unfortunately, this remains unresolved. To me, its quite clear what the intent of the hacking program is (not causing an additional ARM but sending a failed BTS to dead.) I think the confusion here is that all hacking programs have an ammo type. the only way for the game to function properly is that they do not, but rather mimic ammo types while still hitting on BTS. See brain blast. it is listed as having Normal ammo type but still hits on BTS. Say I were to have total immunity. Hitting me with the program Skullbuster would suddenly have me rolling on ARM if it worked the way you suggest. surely this isn't the case.
What ammo type would that be? Don't forget that 'doubling' the Rolls requires two different Ammunition types to be applied...
Both of you @ijw and @MikeTheScrivener look at the hacking table on the army builder. It lists ammunition type if required. Ihave provided a copy in this post. Shock special ammunition. It specifically says that. In addition the hacking attack specifically causes another BTS roll as mentioned in the rules. @MikeTheScrivener brain blast doesn't have an ammunition type. So... Yeah.
A normal hacking attack causes BTS rolls. A normal BS attack causes ARM rolls. This is assuming both are using normal ammunition. What I am arguing is that the hacking attack affects ARM as stated in the shock rules. Nowhere does it say the ARM is replaced by BTS as listed in the shock effects. In page 107 it clearly gives provisions for separate attributes will cause separate rolls. Unless I am mistaken, if I am show me where please.
Army Infinity is not the rules. The rules PDF and the wiki are the rules. To repeat - as per your quoted text in the first post, 'if the Special Ammunition affects different Attributes— then their effects are not combined, but applied separately'. This requires two types of Special Ammunition. What Special Ammunition is being combined with Shock Ammo? For it to work the way you want, Trinity would need to be listed as Nanotech+Shock or similar. EDIT - and please note that none of this is conjecture on my part, i confirmed it with CB.
Finally an answer from CB to force an end to this issue. Thank you so much @ijw :) Edit: this was all I was looking for.
