Yu Jing Fluff - Perception, Reality, Desire

Previously I trusted CB products to be what they were expected to be and to stay that way and spent my money on them with very little restraint.

Assuming I buy CB products again I will be WILDLY paranoid about what will or won't be usable in the very near future. And while I'm uncertain I'll stay away from CB entirely... I can very confidently say that my spending not only has been effected but definitely WILL be dramatically reduced exactly because of the caution resulting from the severe distrust I currently feel for the brand.

Defend the decisions as you apparently must, but a decision turning a trusting consumer into a distrustful consumer that will spend less and more carefully at a minimum is a terrible commercial decision.

And as for the name of the book, I did not order the book, I did not look at the book, I had no interest in the book. You see some people upset with this decision and the appalling fluff attached to it I previously did not care for the fluff, I already considered the writing involved to be uninteresting amateur hour. I did not buy CB products for the fluff, I was happy ignoring it, until it got super insulting and rubbed in my face and it went and tore up my future army lists I had thought I had invested in.

I bought some cool models for my cool army. They turned out not to be what I thought they were. Then the army I already had also turned out not to be what I thought it was. I am... displeased with my consumer experience.

 

Wow dude, nows about the time you realise you're taking some small fiction way too seriously.

 

Umm, based on information from Gutier regarding development cycles, any sales the past 6 months where a JSA miniature have been listed as Yu Jing was selling them under false information. Any sales after box arts have been updated or after official material has been thoroughly updated is different.
The scale of this is fairly small and it's kind of different from other physical products where the value of the product is the actual product rather than what it represents, but the how and why of it is no different than, for example, altering the content of a product to no longer include a certain item (such as no longer selling charging cable together with the hand-held gaming device *Nintendo*)

 

I believe there were insinuations in the direction of "rage monkey".

 

While I agree it is, to Corvus Belli angry Yu Jing players are a negligible minority and new JSA players will far outweight the lossses.

Or at least that's the theory I've seen them go by. "Some Yu Jing players would have complained anyway, so who cares about them". That's a horrible way to think about your customers.

 

Aimed at the ISS who, as far as i know, do not exist

 

I'm not defending anything, I'm just advocating for a more responsible buying behaviour. Whether or not this release is going to be a net gain or a loss for CB exclusively depends on the amount of units they are selling and not on our personal perspectives or anecdotes.

I do have a feeling, however, that this release will sell like hot cakes regardless of all the "backlash" on the forums, so it remains to be seen how it does affect CB's release policy in the future.


@ Mahmatori: The Shikami was a huge blunder, I will not deny that. The same does not apply to the JSA starter, though.

 

I'm sorry you think my reaction is some sort of childish tantrum, but trivializing war crimes and using it to get more publicity and shock impact is never right.

Take into account that in Spain there are a big sh*tstorm regarding mass graves, because of the civil war around the 30's, with a lot of controversial political and judicial stuff going around and tied to Francisco Franco's dictatorship (a galician, too, if you were wondering). So at best this has been a risky dipping into a serious theme for extra publicity. And I am being charitable there, assuming the company does not want to get immersed in a legal process that would make me feel ashamed to go around the city with the faction flags on my miniatures case (btw, the JSA's flag has raised concerns among korean players, in this same forum. No CB employee has taken public steps to address that to my knowledge), if I felt really angry and decided to think they are opportunistic people (and would not take into account that for CB the Spanish market is "done", meaning they assume they won't grow much new customers locally), I would have said that it was a calculated maneuver to get free publicity.

And tell me: does the mass graves stuff ads anything meaningful to the narration? Aside from "teh evulz psychocrane waz krazy!", and that's being generous.

 

According to the metrics released by CB, to justify their removal of JSA from YJ "since its units were barely used on vanilla", people buy big boxes... and little else. So yeah, JSA box sells like hot cakes... then what about the next releases, like the Tankos, or the old ones that are not covered in the JSA box?

Alienating your loyal customers in favor of new customers that won't remain there seems like the strategy is to sell as many stuff as possible... on the short term. That tends to capsize on the long term.

 

JSA will sell a ton. Its obvious, nobody sane would argue against this whole shitshow being very profitable for CB.

I can argue against needlessly angering part of your customers tho. That's not OK regardless of how much money you get from other people.

Especially when one of the justifications thrown around is "well, IS got a whole lot of love". Fuck your love, if that's the price to pay for resculpts and releases I can't wait to see the other factions on the guillotine queue*.

*Actually I can wait. Especially because the next in line is Acon Blows Up. I play Acon. I dont want to read how the CA massively outplayed them.

 

First of all, yeah even the worst of the whole thread is pretty tame, I don't know which internet you've been living in if you believe otherwise.

But also, the whole fifty page thread, why I bet you could cherry pick something from all that which is slightly more spicy than mild.

However what a gigantic goal post shift on your part. You made your statement at a specific time in the thread without quotes and attributions. As a moderator your statement comes off as a direct warning. Without attribution it comes off as a direct warning to the immediately current conversation and posters. If you cannot point at something VERY close to immediately before your post you are trying to weasel out of a misguided overreach. And that further displeases me as a consumer due to your position of authority and it's apparent clumsy misuse and your excuses about that.

Something people have been telling you, very mildly and politely about your posts on this topic all thread.

 

No, mate, the Shikami deal is so trivial that it completely passed me by. If people didn't bring that up constantly the past week I'd not be aware of it and I'm at least decently in touch with rumours and new releases. That colour scheme is mostly a miscommunication with people who actually are sufficiently in the know to not be confused by this switch. (Yeah... I'm basically writing "stop whining about the Shikami")

It's what's said on the box and in commercial messages that are important. Not how a certain thing is painted (considering it says on the box that it's unpainted). I.e. if CB lists an Oniwaban as a Yu Jing unit in their store when they have plans to change it to NA2 or if the box art on the JSA starter that they ship to their retailers has the Yu Jing logo to help customers identify what army the contents belong to while they plan on changing it. Had they done it properly they should have pulled the products or issued product packaging update stickers to their retailers well ahead of time. The release window between the BOW campaign and the product update has been a bit tight.

 

I agree completely, but people get angry for all sorts of nonsense and you don't have to take all of it seriously.

@ Mahmatori: I'm 100% with you. That is something they have to address in the future without question. I found the Shikami particularly bad, because it was released relatively recently.

 

@Eldritch

Thanks for the concern, but I disagree.

 

As a moderator on this forum, when attributing to other posters the intent (or expression) of insult, could I perhaps ask you to be specific as to who or what you're intending to regulate?

Because as of right now, that's not remotely clear.


If this does not work (it takes a great deal of effort, I realise), might I recommend clearly marking when writing "as a moderator", just to make it clear what you're "being grumpy about people on the internet" and when you're "telling people to stop, or else." Changing font colour seems like a popular way of doing this.
Uh, sorry about the overtly informal quotes above, I don't mean to imply you do either, I mean to imply I can't make out what you -do- mean - The slight caricature will be tolerable, I hope.

Either of the two above would help me greatly in understanding what level of debate is welcome on this forum, that you help regulate (thank you for your effort!).

As it is, right now, I lack that clarity, and I think it fair to say, some here aren't really giving you the benefit of the doubt.

 

I will look into it, I consider adopting a colour, but maybe I flag my posts as been moderation or general discussion.

What you said though is a fair question.

Language is a powerful tool and context makes it even more powerful, calling a professional writer's work amateurish and fan fiction you directly call the writer unprofessional and not worth the pay he gets, fanfiction is regarded as the lowest level of writing (there may be some good or stellar work out there, but this is the level of writing the title implies) saying a company publishes such work directly claims the company will allow any trash been published to get a quick buck.

It is one thing saying you do not like the writing and what parts you wanted to be changed and another to slap (insulting) labels on people and companies.

 

Still waiting for quotes of people insulting CB... otherwise, your claims are as trustable as Trump's allegation of "fake news"


Then again, it has been that way the whole thread, so i don't really care.

 

I have been reading from Fanfiction.net, spacebattles.com and others. And while most of the things posted there are serious SANity threats, saying that Fanfiction is automatically the lowest level is threading into ice so tin, you don't even ear it crack before you are up to your ears. I suggest you go and read "fanfiction" like Mother of Learning, several of the works written by EarthScorpion, or Wildbow's Worm (it has its own wordpress site), or even Broken Bow (a fanfic of Percy Jackson, with a crossover at one chapter with Artemis Fowl, with plot, plot twists, and good grammar and vocabulary, incidentally. And not for children, unless having the protagonist graphically murder some would-be murderers while posessed by the "protect maidens" portfolio is for children, that is). Or dungeon Keeper Amy (started at 2009. And more than interesting to read). Or Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, or its second part Significant Numbers ... Those are just some that I read, and consider better than some crap that gets published (and I'm not talking about the 50 shades of gray or the work that fanfic was based upon...).

Firstly, because there is a Fanfiction section in this forum.

Second, because some works start as "fanfiction" (called "web novels, funnily enough) and then go for full commercial support. Like Overlord, who has now about 13 novels, several of whom have been officially translated, an anime (with the 3rd season announced. By a Studio who had NEVER made even a 2nd season), and a manga.

Third, because, as my verbose commentaries have exposed, you have essentially hanged yourself: several people consider non-payed work BETTER and made with MORE EFFORT than what Uprising presents.

And yet those who do that are precisely "stablished" and traditional companies. Like the vampires stupid books, or the BDSM even more stupid Author's Rights sanitized book (both made into movies...). And let us not talk about GW's books lines, with some gems and some... as I said, perils to any sane mind.

Do I think CB wants to make a "quick buck" out of the Uprising Book? No. I do think, however, that they want to make a quick buck with the JSA box, and its success is something we all agree will be incredible.
Now, in a "rational" frame of mind (falsely, but close enough to be confused with one), a company who sees that will repeat the same moves time and again, without any kind of regard for loyal customers, attracted by the new ones... And risking those new ones buying the basic product, and leaving, thus entering a time of troubles for the company, since wargamers do not forget.

Then again, you seem to consider that critics to CB aim to undermine the company. That is not correct. The truth is that everything goes in cycles, and we are trying to prevent CB to enter into an undesirable circle.
But they have not even once acknowledge this thread's preoccupations, limiting their overt interaction to Koni (all hail the BanHammer!) issuing ban warnings (as is his duty and privilege), but not even the article that would address the issues we had here bothered to answer any.

Like they think we will forget and let this happen again.

 

Maybe you ought to stop white-knighting participating in topics as a poster. Or step aside as moderator, since you only seem to call out people who don’t reflexively praise CB.

 

This thread, this whole event, has definitely evoked some passionate posting, and that can lead to heated words and insults. A few pages back, I think we got into the 'thousand monkeys on a thousand typewriters for a thousand years' thing, implying that they could eventually produce Shakespeare but not something as bad as Uprising. If lines are being drawn for arguments on the internet, I can certainly see how that crosses from criticism into insults.

But calling Uprising or Gutier's work fanfiction isn't even coming close to crossing any sort of reasonable bar. There is definitely a problem with it, but its with using 'fanfiction' as a negative term, as @xagroth outlines above the medium of fiction-written-by-fans is immensely broad, encompassing some of the worst and best examples of writing you'll ever read and having content to fill every step between those two extremes. Using the term 'fancfiction' to mean 'bad writing' dismisses all the examples of fanfiction which are well written, and in a vacuum an observer who had only read those examples would fail to understand the rest of the sentence or objections to it, since to them the word would seem a compliment.

That said, agreed that there is a pretty commonly accepted trope in nerddom that fanfiction is bad, which meant pretty much everyone understood the meaning of the posters using the word, even if using more defined terminology would've been the better approach. But if you swap out the terms, saying 'interruptor is a bad writer' instead, or even 'the fiction published in Infinity books is trash', those are harsh criticisms (and there are whole conversations to be had there with examples and counterpoints and caveats) but harsh as they might be they remain valid criticisms to put forward.

As a criticism it goes further than I would personally, I find the underlying setting in Infinity to be brilliantly put together, and the format for presentation of that material to be excellent. The writing itself has always been the weak spot, something I had attributed to translation issues up until these discussions of Uprising. But calling Infinity material bad, putting it on the level of bad fanfiction, becomes a needless insult only if it being bad is an impossibility. It isn't.