We should probably talk about this for a second because it seems important to point out why this is wrong. If you lose both TAGs during the game it's far from over. You most likely did serious damage and didn't let both TAGs get killed for free. So you are quite likely sitting on a big chunk of your Order pool to deal with your opponents damaged army. This ain't over mate, this is where you start being a good player and make the most out of what you have, to do what it's all about: spending Orders to win the Mission. Whenever I run a Tik and the game goes as Tik games tend to go, half my army doesn't get to spend Orders all game. I'm not gonna throw the towel if he goes down and I've Orders left to spend on 150 points newly promoted best available options. As far as "kill the Cheerleaders not the TAG" goes I'm not a fan (when playing PanO). Compared to the usual Smoke chugging Warband, TAGs are made of paper relative to their point cost - when you engage them on your terms witg tge right tools (like you should).
With Brawlers and a clipper, the link is cheaper, more versatile, and more deadly. I don't take Druze in Haqq, but I love them in DBS. And even if your opponent has an engineer, he's wasting orders sneaking a generally weak troop around. Better yet; kill the engineer.
Hmmm, maybe we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I play things out, but TAGs make an already swingy game even more so. If they've taken out both TAGs, they've likely done so in a manner cheaper than the TAGs, such that even if it was a suicide run, they can out ahead (probably significantly). Just take a look at a lot of the things mentioned in this thread, and others for taking out the TAG. The Magister Link is probably the most expensive. Warbands, Oniwaban, Camo marker CC troopers, even a lot of link teams are going to be cheaper, and most disposable. I'd definitely play the spoiler, and I'm not going to pout and whine, since I knew it was a gambling going in. However, I'm also not going to worry about an extra order or two to bring down one of my Fusies from hiding. Also I placed the Kamau in the forward position for exactly this reason, but I'm under no illusions that a Combi rifle equiped hacker is going to take out what's probably going to be a mostly intake force.
I don't really agree here, Tag lists are highly dependent on their tag and losing 1, let alone 2 means its very unlikely you'll come back from that. You can hack a tag and take it over without it being able to shoot and crit you. Can't really hack cheerleaders, if you could would you rather have their cheerleader or their best model on the table? Taking out the cheerleaders is one of many options for dealing with high profile models. It's not going to come up every game, its just something you are aware of as a strategy. Sometimes you find that opportunity and you win because you killed half their army with a single infiltrator wielding a shotgun. Opportunity cost and profile changes. In QK there are other link teams and other things you can do that were better, they didn't even have the E/m lgl (just lgl) until the druze sectorial came out. I would say E/M is more dangerous considering it can virtually 1-shot most models no matter how many wounds/str they have. Then there's Starco. You get a riot girl link, which everyone knows is good, and add that extra reach onto it with Emily who has an lgl with both normal and e/m ammunition, hitting you on 10's and 13's for minimal opportunity cost. The link is still a great castle link and can also randomly threaten any model on the board without going near them. Now, you have 2 recent factions built around a solid link team that benefits from the H3 changes letting you do full skills with the link leader without breaking the link. These factions aren't all in on doing this one specific thing either, its just a dude you throw into your link and you still get all this other great stuff you can do. These things are really new so I doubt its really caught on yet in most areas. I'm not saying its completely broken (that would be mutts), it's just annoying that there's no real counter play to it since it ignores terrain, the thing the whole game is designed around.
@RogueJello @zavros with all due respect guys.... what do you expect from a TAG? I mean your're gonna use it in FTF rolls and advance it up the field. You'd expect your opponent to be incompetent if he is unable to deal with a TAG a turn (even without a optimized tool for that like an Oniwaban) - that leaves you without a TAG in turn 2 or 3 depending on of you went first or second. That's the nature of a 2 TAG list. If you want to avoid that I'd recommend dropping a TAG and opting for Vanilla with Krakots, Auxbots, Regular Minelayers, Warcor or Techbee to chew through. TO ARO pieces also make your TAG a lot safer. You can't expect to keep someone out of your DZ with a Limited Insertion list, there simply isn't enogh attrition in it to stop a list with Smoke, AD and 15+ Orders from doing that. If you lose both TAGs right off the bat, that would indeed be harsh. However doing more than 8 Damage to 2 REM:Pres TAGs and killing off your Engineer would most likely indicate getting severly outplayed. Here's what I threw together the last time I wanted to play a TAG and keep it alive in Acon and Vanilla: Shock Army of Acontecimento ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 TIKBALANG HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / AP CCW. (2 | 85) CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. () NAGA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28) BAGH-MARI HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 26) REGULAR (Sapper) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 22) REGULAR (Minelayer, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14) REGULAR Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) REGULAR Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) REGULAR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) REGULAR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) REGULAR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) GROUP 2 5 1 NAGA (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 27) TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army PanOceania ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 9 TIKBALANG HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / AP CCW. (2 | 85) CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. () AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) GROUP 2 4 1 SWISS GUARD Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 69) HEXA MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 32) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army I'm not particularily fond of that Vanilla list, the Acon one is a lot better from my point of view. However the Swiss ML keeps performing above expectations so I hardly even run the HMG anymore (for reasons I fail to comprehend). Leaving the Tik visible to overwatch a firelane and "Mine" the most obvious engagement area/corner with both TO pieces. My yes, I do use TAGs as bait for more than the TAG's own worth of ARO pieces. And no I don't feel dirty. Maybe when I crit 3-5 guys on a 18 or 15, but it's hardly my fault people use Links.
Yeah, the problem is that "virtually", which we all know means "not actually". :) em is strong, but since it's reversable it needs to be, otherwise you're always better off killing a model, which is the ultimate negative status marker. :) There are a number of things in the game that ignore terrain: DTWs, Hackers, Sat Lock, etc. The counter play is the same as a lot of other good attack pieces: kill it first, or make it difficult for the model to advance. Will all due respect, I think I've answered that several times in the thread: I expect better resilence and durability than a cheerleader. I know it's possible to drop one turn 1, but it's far from certain. It's much more likely to drop 2-3 cheerleaders that are attempting to get AROs. As such I'd like to protect the more vulnerable of the two. I think my odds are better that way. After turn 1 it becomes an interesting game of can I smoke the threats before they get me. With all due respect, I didn't want to run A TAG, I wanted to run TWO TAGs list, mostly for the fun of it. The local ITS was going to be a mix of newbies and vets, with an emphasis on teaching, not squeaking out every last drop of optimization from the SWC/pts available. If I really wanted to run something optimized the correct number of PanO TAGs is 0-1 since they're expensive and there are a number of models in the game are designed to make that asymmetric trade. :) I think I've said as much a few times, though I understand these threads tend to drift. My intention was to discuss putting models on roof tops, which is a problem regardless of the models used as attack pieces. It's just easier to hide in a 10 man list.
For me this is a terrain available question as much as a list issue. If you don't have tall enough structures outside of deployments zones as options to have fire lanes to those roof tops then you should be building your tables with that in mind. No spot on the table should be a total safe zone. I personally don't like usable interiors to buildings in this game as they tend to make safe zones that are almost impossible to break into (or overly favour one faction/unit type over others). As far as list options go, the TO/AD troops should be capable of getting to the ladders needed to get to those roof spots. Failing that spec fire options are available and should be used assuming its just roof tops and not interior hiding spots as well. Grenades and grenade launchers are not optimal but are a solution if that is a major problem for your meta. I complain a lot about ODD and TO as a USARF player but have also found following that advice to be the most practical for me. Basically if roof tops alone are the problem then using spec fire or those units with the mobility will be the only answers. OT: Love the avatar there, that is the cover of the copy of Starship Troopers than my dad gave me way back when.
Yeah I may be mixed up. So looking at it from your opponents perscpective. Firstly, Id not be overly worried about your core list. Purely because I dont think you've done a great job of building it effectively to support the 2 TAGs, Playing it as ASA and getting a link and a few Naga in the list would be much scarier to me, or taking some of the steps suggested in the lists I posted above to give you additional capabillity beyond just hte Dragoe and the Tikbalang would also be more dangerous to me. Now in terms of your opponents dealing with your models prone on rooves or in the second floor. well to be perfectly honest if he is building his lists without all the tools that he needs its not your responsibillity to deliberately limit your own tactics. Not only does he have the option of just dealing with the TAGs, it is a lot easier to do if they dont have the support to push and control the board, and the Sierra is fairly easy to take out if it is also unsupported as your only ARO pieces early game (before the TAGs can SF) As such if I was your opponent and had no means od effectively getting to your orders (Which I should and it would have been my own stupidity if I did not plan for models being in hard to access locations or parked behind the TAGline) then I would focus on first clearing off hte sierra, and secondly dropping the machinist (or his palbot if he is hidden) such that I limit you abillity to be aggressive with your TAGs, id then look at using means of flanking your TAGs if the majority of you other units are not watching their back. So ultimately I guess if your opponent is leaving gaps in their own capability the onus is not on you to limit your exploitation of their weaknesses. They will either learn quickly or they wont and will forever be at the mercy of players that do understand the capabilities, strategies and tactics of their opponents.
I'm confused by what's going on in this thread. Basically OP says "I know this list is not optimized, but I would like to know if I'm going too hard on my opponents still". By using what probably was in N1 strategy guides 101, no less. Has Infinity been fundamentally broken for these 10 years or so and nobody has noticed?
Why be confused at this? Op says "I know this list is not optimized, but I would like to know if I'm going too hard on my opponents still". Other guys say "There are plenty of tools and tricks to do with this kind of lists, it`s ok."
Right, you need a specialized model that is ava 1 in most factions to cure a state caused by a rare ammunition type. Good thing Emily has normal ammunition to hit your engineer first. Right, so we are back to where we started, your counter play is winning the lieutenant roll and going first since linked x-visor spec fire models don't need to advance. I suppose the other option is to play ariadna and camo spam. In its current state spec fire is inefficient which is right where it should be. The linked spec fire teams are pushing it and I'm not a fan because its purely non interactive unlike guided ammo (you can hack it, takes extra models and orders to set up, and is limited to 5 shots a turn). Lets say there was a good option for effectively taking out individual rooftop models, would 10 order lists even be playable? If your opponent could consistently hunt down hiding cheerleaders at a decent rate of efficiency per order, how often would you be crippled on the first turn before you even get to really play the game? Would anyone even bother playing tags if all of their cheerleaders were always vulnerable?
Point of order: thread title should say "Strategies for Prone Models IN buildings." "On" implies that they're on the rooftops and therefore vulnerable to SpecFired grenades, while "in" means inside. LGLs were definitely low-usage in N2. Hrm. That table looks open to me, but that's fine. We don't usually leave infinite-height buildings in the deployment zone, though. (Any building without a roof has infinite height) Agreed, I'd go kill the TAGs. playing JSA and those missions? Man, I'd probably run some variation of the Samurai 7, with DoHara (DoTanko) link team, O-Yoroi, Musashi/Yojimbo, and hacker+engineer+doc. Support hides like the squishy models they are, link team goes up one side, TAG up the other. Got EM weapons (and an ML!) in the linkteam to hammer the TAGs, my O-Yoroi kills your TR bot and anything else I can find. Playing Nomads or Ariadna, EM and Glue are your friends.
I want to say, that as you point out, the Dragoe is a far more dangerous opponent between the burst advantage, and AP ammo. They should prioritize the Dragoe over the Tik. You also don't need to spend orders killing it. Ideally you would merely engage both tags, or drop the Dragoe because its the real threat. Once engaged it becomes incredibly difficult for either tag to disengage, especially with a list full of basic fuslieers. There isn't an easy order efficient way to unengage them. Once accross the board you may want to maintain the link for SSL2 and dodging while in melee or it may makes more sense to break coherence and take cover then to leave things in the open to be gunned down. The point I'm attempting to make is that this isn't the cut and dried link team dead in 7 orders that you seem to think it is. There are significant variables at play. I also think that if someone is going to play in a direct action event, they should be prepared to handle a tag. In my experience handling one tag is actually very similar to handling 2, I don't think infinity really allows you to flood the field with an amount of armor and wounds that becomes insermountable. I don't think you can math hammer an ultimate list, though you can loose by fielding ones that are poorly designed and don't take account for the missions.
I just skipped a novel of text that can't be all that's going on. edit: Big disagree on "not coming back from losing a TAG".
The Dragao is frightening in active shooting, but that's all. The Tik has mobility. If you hide in the middle area and prepare some ambushes, there is nothing the Dragao can do, it cannot enter the midboard without taking heavy risks, while the Tik could climb and shoot his opponents from various angles, or use mines ... That's why i would rather prioritize the Tik, for the Dragao is easier to handle, even if his firepower is greater.
I think that's going to challenging for anybody who isn't running two full combat groups. It's the reason why I put them on opposite sides of the board, with 36-40" between them. Keep in mind you still need to cross the table, get into position, etc etc. Most of the things that do that are going to be counting on smoke to deal with the TR REM, which I will setup to shoot as many Impetus orders as possible. Even if they do setup out of LOS, it's going to force them to deploy further back than they would like. Maybe for other links, but the Magisters are far more survivable in a link. Outside the link they become impetus and can no longer claim cover. They can also B2 the Panzerfausts while in the link. No, but then nobody is saying insurmountable, so I'm not sure why you think that's the case. I've repeatedly stated that TAGs ARE vulnerable, and it's quite possible to take them out. Further, I've said a number of times that most of the things that can mess up the TAGs can do a worse number on the Fusies, and often more efficiently, and the Fusies are less equiped to deal with it. With the Fusies on the ground the correct answer is to shoot them instead.
Actually, I think the harder list to deal with would be a TAG+HI link, as opposed to dual TAGs. Lots more wounds to beat through. Even scarier for someone runing dual TAGs, the most likely TAG+HI link is JSA and MO, which means either Blitzens and ML or massed Panzerfausts. Either one is going to murder a TAG. While I agree, it does take some practice and good list design to do. Guess I should add the "plan" item to my 4 basic things every good list needs, making it a 5-item list. Did someone call a Hellcat ADHL? And/or Tomcats with DEP?
TAGs are defensively very weak. They are cavalry. Cavalry does not hold ground. Infantry holds ground, cavalry takes ground. On your active turn, the TAG has speed, firepower and resilience which is unequalled by other troops. Especially stuff like Tikbalangs, Dragaos, Szalamandras etc. You use it to do as much killing as you possibly can, and then on the reactive turn, it's an expensive liability that the rest of your force needs to protect. This is why there is a degree of talking at cross-purposes here, some people are saying "my TAG can murder all this stuff!" and some people are saying "but I can kill your TAG with my stuff!" Both are true! TAGs are easy to kill when they are being actively hunted, and also capable of murdering entire combat group's worth of shit. This is a design intention, however, not a quirk of rules. Hence why the Swiss Guard ML is good with a Tikbalang, it is a good reactive protection. As is this Croc Man Minelayer and the Peacemaker. They all provide you with a defensive screen that the enemy must penetrate to kill the TAG as it rests between active turn killing sprees.
