Sure it's a balancing act, having almost everything unaccessible without spending 2-4 orders to get to each one seems to be on the extreme. Sure, but I don't think those approaches are feasible, because of their lack of efficency. Further I don't see them being used here locally, nor really discussed much on the forums. So it feels like CB might have gone a bit too far with the guided missile (I don't remember any LGLs being used in N2) Agreed, but I don't care. If I've lost both TAGs and the TR REM that's 2/3s of my army, and the game is over anyway. About the only reason to bring those Fusies forward is to shoot up a deployable Repeater. (Which I don't really see outside of pitchers, which are limited to Nomads and Haqq I believe) Which he ended up doing during Turn 2, taking out the Tik with a CC monofilament. However by that time I had decimated his order pool and he couldn't cross the field to get to the Dragoes, or kill any Fusies. No, it's pretty bad odds for the TAG. However the context was whether or not I could sit the TAG in partial cover, and if something nasty came for it, take a 1-2 str points, and then duck into cover. Even the worst of the heavy Anti-TAG weapons, on B2, is likely going to allow me to do that, so the odds are GOOD for being able to duck back into full cover if I get into that situation. I'll gamble on a 10% of dropping the TAG in one go to get some AROs.
And then the Magister Fireteam run up and rip it to shreds in CC, or with Shotguns? I'm not seeing how that's a win. :-(
Coupled with the 30% chance to put the model into the Targetted state, and we're at ~20% success rate, so 3-4 orders? Regardless, thanks for the tips. I also really appreciate your app, it makes a lot of these discussions easier to have, otherwise it really gets off into subjective feelings about how efficient various approaches are. True, but I don't find it hard to hide a 10 man squad in such a way that this is a problem. In this case there was only 1 per building. I probably could have hidden even more without putting them into templates. Here's the board in question, FWIW. Typically we're pretty normal terrain wise. I've marked in blue all the places I had a LI hiding prone on a roof top or building. The close orange blotch is the Dragoes. The far purple blotch is the Tik. The closest blue near the bottom is the Kamau hacker. Blue at the bottom next to the Dragoes is the Engineer. Pretty sure I had one more model hidden somewhere, but drawing a blank as to where. Ignore the models currently on the table, this was taken earlier in the event.
Or they get set on fire on the way in, or shot up by the TR REM, etc. At which point we're back to why we play games. :) And none of which is anything I would expect a Fusie ARO to effect in any manner. And I've said a number of times I don't think TAGs are the ubermench of Infinity. If anything I think the HI or Camo troopers are better. They will definitely go down, and to a variety of opponents. What they will not do is die as easily as an exposed Fusie.
Interesting points. As I said I've never faced twin tags, but I don't feel particulary concerned about facing them as I think I have lots of options. Hopefully I can get some games in against them and be better able to contribute to this discussion!
Yeah, the issue with having that many cheerleaders is they're in an inaccessible position. If someone else just stuffs your TAG's face in (and there are things that can do that) you are our of orders to develop anything else into a useful position.
Yeah, that looks like a reasonable board to me. Given that set up I would probably opt to hunt tags. I'm generally in agreement with the likes of other posters. If the tag loses the FTF roll against something like a Magister link and falls into total cover, then the board is open for the link to advance and tear up tags in melee. The flamer helps deter, but warbands only die to flamers about 25% of the time, it's only a short skill to dodge it. I can see lots of counter plays. Given lists that I typically play or play against. I know it's been said before but lots of AD/Imp/superior infiltration surprises are easy button counters. Combined arms like coordinated order panzerfaust from things like daylami or Jaguars. Or forcing tags to fall back into total cover and run up the board with em ccw morlocks. (Always pick em ccw!) If the enemy has their own alpha killer like another tag or a linked AP hmg, it becomes very feasible to quickly depelete those tags structure and foce them to duck and run. During deployment and first reactive turn there are a lot of things your opponent can do to tax your order as well. Deployment of repeaters in total cover blocking flanks and using things like warbands to clog up the center, and similarly hiding important things in total cover, but with potential to run away into doors or around corners as well.
heres the thing, That list, it does 1 thing and you have huge capability gaps within it. Not only can you not deal with units inside/on top of buildings but you are very vulnerable to skirmishers and warbands, all it requires is someone to cap that TR HMG early and rush you. You need to build a list with everything in mind, while you might be limited in minis and thats unfortunate its not the games fault if you arent taking the right tools. For example" PanOceania ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 2 DRÃGAO Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon, Heavy Flamethrower / . (2.5 | 94) CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. () TIKBALANG HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / AP CCW. (2 | 85) CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. () MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14) KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14) HEXA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 27) 4.5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army OR PanOceania ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 DRÃGAO Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon, Heavy Flamethrower / . (2.5 | 94) CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. () TIKBALANG HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / AP CCW. (2 | 85) CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. () MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14) TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) HEXA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 27) 5.5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army Both of those have far more in built capability, and both of them have strategies for killing hard to get too troops.
And if its a case of needing to deal with the TAG player, then exploit the weaknesses in his list, use AHD skirmishers, covered by KHD skirmishers, use your own spec fire to kill his machinist, Range+Camo Sniper his TR HMG or Skirmish+Rifle it. the list lacks a lot of depth so use your own depth to exploit his weakness
I'm sorry didn't read the whole thing - did we consider that models Prone on roofs/in buildings are not just hard to reach but also trapped there themselves? Putting all your Specialists in hard to reach spots is an easy way for your opponent to win the mission pushing buttons. Something has to be on the ground to move and will be disposed of, in the unlikely event there isn't any way to properly deal with all those troops Prone on roofs and in buildings you can simply stare them down with a wall of Supressive Fire and make sure it stays that way while you work towards getting and angle from where you can approach them. Not to mention putting all your stuff on roofs is an easy way to make a Fiday's, Speculo's, Su Jian's or Tik's day. Ariadna doesn't leave the house without Grenades, Nomads and Aleph have easy access to C+. My MO or NCA could probably be in a pinch.... if I don't drop a Seraph/Squalo as reserve piece to ruin your day. There are most certainly lists that struggle with that, but I'd simply blame it on unfortunate table+list matchup and that just happens from time to time (like when you don't get any terrain big enough to hide a S7 Silhouette...).
Looks like you play Haqq, so a Mutt carefully hidden mid-field would also give this list some head aches. Yeah, but if they stuff both TAGs faces in, that's pretty much game over anyway. Which I think it better than sniping my order pool, which is all I was trying to accomplish. Let's say that happens, and they totally take out the Tik. It's a completely reasonable outcome. How many orders did that take? 1-2 to force the Tik back into cover, 1-2 to take out the TR rem, 3-4 to cross the board, and then another 1-2 to finish dropping the Tik in CC. I'm going to guess that's most of the first combat groups order pool, assuming they don't run out of orders. Since it's MO they've got a few orders in the other pool at best. The Mag link is now now sitting in the open, across from the Dragoes, who will spend the next turn removing them. Generally if the Magister's dodge, that's 80% chance of 1 W, 55% of 2W. They could shoot back with Panzerfausts, but the odds go up. Link team helps a bit, but I can probably drop them in 6-7 turns, and maybe shoot up another cheer leader, or go into suppression. I'll trade a 100 pts and 2 orders for 140 pts, 5 orders, and the core fire team. Anyway, I think we agree, there are lots of counter plays. TAGs die just like anything else, that's not really the question, IMHO. Yeah, and once again I agree. However, with this list I don't see that I have an answer even with the Fusies on the ground, or even with the lists Da Border has suggested. This list has holes, which is good, it means the system is balanced, that's fine. Yes, but they can't do all the things, and once they've used some things like Pitchers, that's it, either they worked, and I need to deal with them, or they did not. And turn 1 is when I'm most vulnerable. After 1, I'm going to advance and put the TAGs into suppression mid board, which is a far stronger position for them than in my deployment zone waiting to get shot. I've probably already seen any AD troopers, and you might have revealed a few camo markers to place mines and the like. Interesting. You're probably right about the Hexas over the Kamau, and the Krakot renegades look pretty cool, but I don't think LGLs on Fusies are worth having. Also not keen on losing the TR REM. It was pretty much MVP during this particular game, shooting up most of his forces in the reactive turn, and leaving the rest for the Dragoes.
14 pts 1 swc for a spec fire weapon out to 16s that hits on 9s. Theres a tipping point for spec fire where the -3 sum to hit keeps the bs above the targets -3 to dodge and bs12 is that swing pt where your favourable to hit spec fire is above the vast majority if targets in the games favourable to dodge against spec fire. That makes it worth it. Particularly in pano where there arent cheap skirmishers packing nades and the like
If they aren't supported I just shoot them in the back over and over. They are only durable if you hit them on the hard point: kept in cover with shots back. You simply don't pull that off without tons of physical presence and support. I almost never actually hack a TAG my opponent won't let me.
No, not at 25% success rate against soft targets like Algicuiles, with the odds only decreasing. I'd rather have the Order Sgt with the Heavy Rocket launcher.
Sure? I've got the Tikbalang to deal with models on roof tops and on the 2nd floor. I get the impression reading your responses on this thread I either worded things poorly, or you're not reading it well. This list has no issues with those sorts of models, since Climbing+ is a good solution. I was mainly concerned about my opponent, and not doing anything too unpleasant to him.
I think it’s more of an issue of your opponent being relatively newer. Infinity is difficult enough that even moving to shoot something in a “fair” fight can involve so many mechanics that will slow down a new player, much less think of alternative solutions which JSA simply has to exploit since they generally can’t go toe to toe shootouts with PanO rambos. An experienced player will probably already have a rough idea of what to do if they face a TAG when they build a list, and be more familiar with the mechanics of the game to efficiently execute this plan.
The models you want to attack are usually the the action pieces which are accessible. In this instance, the 2 tags deployed at ground level. Even if you had some heavy infanty/camo markers, they would probably be deployed at ground level. What I'm saying is that no one usually cares about your line infantry hanging out on buildings, its your action pieces that matter and they will be at ground level. If you really castle up and put your action pieces on rooftops, then those are things you can play around a lot easier because they are way more restricted on what they can do. For this game in particular, its going to revolve around the 2 tags you brought which is how you are going to score, and they are at ground level in an accessible place without spending the extra 2 orders clambering onto a building. Lets say you cut the Dragao out of the list and add an orc with hmg, a hexa killer hacker, and 2 auxilia. Deploying the others are obvious but where do you deploy the orc? Do we put the orc out to aro, hide him on ground level, or prone on a building? He's our secondary attack piece for winning the mission so we want him protected, but we want to be able to use him effectively on our turn if we need to use him. Do we potentially trade 2-4 of our orders down the road in order for our opponent to spend 2-4 extra orders to reach him? It's a good trade if the Tik stays alive, those are orders we won't have to spend while our opponent does. If the Tik dies though, it gets costly to reposition the orc off the rooftop to do something with him. If he's deployed on the ground he's more vulnerable but in a better position to take advantage of the active turn. These seem like fair trade offs for something that is easy to do. Yet despite any of this your opponent can still reach and attack rooftop models if they are willing to spend the extra orders, which they will if those models matter at all for the mission. Sure with a 16" deployment, you get access to a few extra rooftops for firefight but it doesn't really have an impact with what the game is going to revolve around. For specifically firefight, it actually weakens your deployment just deploying on rooftops since drop troopers can walk onto your deployment edge in firefight. Looking at your deployment and table, there are several spots a drop trooper could walk in behind you for free and cause a lot of trouble with minimal orders. The new merc companies have strong options for this approach with linked em lgl's and x-visors. It's kind of rediculous honestly, they can rain em grenades on you on 9's from 16-24 and 12's in 8-16. You can't really do anything about it if you go second since they don't need to interact with you at all and can even hit you from their deployment zone in firefight.
Maybe. I mean I understand the point you're making, and it's a good one, but at the same time, generally the advice (which is good) for TAGs is to kill the order pool. Reasoning is that the TAG is a much harder target than the cheerleaders. I'd yet to hear anybody suggest something for taking out the TAGs that would be harder against the cheerleaders. If you're referring to the Druze, they were already an option in Haqq's QP sectorial, so what has changed please? EM grenades are nasty if you don't have an engineer, but a time sync otherwise.
