The other day, during a tournament, we were talking random stuff when this came out. Thing is, I've been going through the rules and I haven't seen anything in particular that makes me think that you can't do this. The Motorcycle rules say: In the TAG "rules" there ain't anything that says that you can't use a Motorcycle, and there's no FAQ about it either. So, being rawer, if a Maghariba goes to a Panoply and rolls an 18, you'd get a Motorcycle, you could ride it and you'll go from a S8 to an S4. Can anybody find anything against this?
As a "RAWer", naturally you hit the problem that the Panolpy supply you with the profiles that the the Motorcycle rules specify you should have. After all, all the entry says is "Motorcycle (MOV 8-6)" That doesn't specify what the S value to use when riding the motorcycle is, or what (if any) of the user's equipment is able to be used when riding, So, as a RAW aficionado, how did you conclude that you become S4 when riding that motorcycle?
This topic came up in the old forum, and I said EXACTLY the same thing @Segis! Some situations should be ruled for because they make the game better whether or not they make the game more sensible!
When the rules say that you change your Silhouette when you hop on, and a little further down it's specified the Motorcycle profile with S4. That bit got cropped when I copy-pasted.
That path is a very dangerous one to follow. You can't apply your logic to a game to "fill the rule's holes". That way, I could argue that when you leave someone Unconscious that was Climbing it should fall to the ground and make an ARM roll, but it doesn't. The game doesn't specify that it happens that way, so the target gets stuck in the wall. And that's only one example.
The climbing plus model falls down. The bike should not be intractable with a TAG ectr, but I am afraid this was not considered significant initially (apply common sense ectr).
I very much agree with what you say Khayloth, but in that case would clearly make it a house rule for the sake of a bit of fun. The situation is one in which regrettably, we're without either clearly written rules or knowledge of Corvus Belli's intentions. So my suggestion is that (unless someone has something concrete to offer in either respect) we should avoid exercises in rules-lawyering (because that way, to the Dark Side leads ), and come up with a workable house rule. The rationale of my solution is just what seems reasonable given what we already know about the Infinity world, and what we already know of the rules for the game. I avoided any 'rules gap interpretations' like ones we saw last time about Climbing Plus units negating extant rules prohibiting Motorcycles using vertical walls, [sigh] and made exceptions to my own rules where necessary. This is what I came up with: Regardless of which unit rolls on Panopoly and receives the Motorcycle, the following restrictions to eligibility for also using it: Units must be S2 (ie. human sized riders that would fit on a human-sized motorcycle Units may not be Remotes, TAGs or Heavy Infantry unless specifically exempted The Motorcycle can be ridden out of the Operations Room room doorways Exceptions to exclusions: Jean D'Arc (because it feels right); Maghariba Guard (because it's funny) Presumably, the TAG Pilot rules could be worked with to get around TAGs and Motorcyles - any thoughts on that, or better solutions generally?
Well, first things first. I think that a Maghariba trying to ride a Motorcycle is a hell of a funny view. Also, a Seraph skating over an Aragoto model looks Over 9000 of coolness. That being said, "House Rules" are as dangerous as "It's my tournament and you'll follow my logic", and that's why we have Rules and FAQs. For example, your example there, you have thought of it and you think it's great and suits your logic, but I don't like it. I don't see why Tarik Mansuri cannot ride a Haqq Motorcycle, or an Asawira, or "Light IPs" like the ones you can find in JSA. And that's the problem with Logic, House Ruling and such. I've been down that path multiple times and I'll never go there. I'd rather bug and whine in the forums until @HellLois sees fit to get a new FAQ out with something like... "If a TAG or a Remote gets the Motorcycle result in the Booty L2 roll, roll again". Antipodes riding a Motorcycle are cool af.
Off-topic, but I don't think there's a distinctive formal state of climbing that C+ units won't be in because they walk on walls instead. I think it is defined by model placement. As such, I don't think that C+ models are any more prone to falling when their C+ is disabled than any other unit that never had C+ in the first place. Am I wrong? Perhaps there are different ways to read basic climbing description. Screw that, how can they fall if falling is a secondary function of Jump? I don't think it's even mentioned as a possibility anywhere else. Back on topic, what exactly is the problem with TAG rolling a motorcycle, at least compared to any other model doing the same? I mean, from RAW perspective, ofc.
That's not what it actually says, though. The Silhouette Attribute of a mounted trooper is only given in the Mounted profile of that trooper. The S4 Silhouette you're talking about is for the Motorcycle Marker that is left behind when you dismount. So as written, using a Motorcycle from a Panoply doesn't change the trooper's Silhouette value in any way. So it's not an issue of large troopers suddenly shrinking, but that small troopers ride very small Motorbikes...
Check again the Motorcycle rule in the Wiki. There you have the Motorcycle profile and it specifies S4. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Motorcycle Also, the Spanish version says "Motorcyle Profile" while the English one says "Motorcycle Marker Profile" which creates a reasoning more towards your point.
I checked it before posting. The Motorcycle profile is for the Motorcycle marker, for after you Dismount. See the last Effect bullet: When a trooper on a Motorcycle declares the Short Skill Move and announces he will Dismount, replace the mounted figure by a Motorcycle Marker (MOTORCYCLE) or a piece of scenery of similar diameter. Place the trooper's model in base to base contact with the Motorcycle Marker, or measure his movement from the edge of the Marker's base, as you prefer. My emphasis. Otherwise anyone on a Motorcycle would lose all their ARM and BTS, and wouldn't have most other Attributes...
So you're saying that any model picking up a motorcycle from the panoply keeps their original silhouette? Even if they're S2? (I'm picturing everyone riding very tiny unicycles ).
Well, in fact they lose Climbing Plus, and there is no mention of what happens if a troop climbing falls Unconscious in the wiki... aside from the "must go prone if they belong to a type of troop able to do so", while Climb does not allow you to go prone, so existential failure and fall to death. But a remote with climbing plus... might have grounds to remain glued to the side XD Future!bikes are either Segways (and TAGs use one on each appendage) or everybody that steals a bike does so in uniwheel fashion... After all, an Aragoto changes between S2 and S4, but if an Irmandinho or Bandit takes their bike, it suddenly is a S2!!! XDDDDD
I am not sure why you guys insist on that. Is there a rule I keep missing? Falling is a part of Jump rule. If you don't Jump, you don't fall. At least I don't see falling being referenced anywhere else. Again, is that incorrect? You don't need to have Climbing+ to cling to a wall, so I don't see why would C+ model that loses C+ behave any differently from just something that used Climb, never having C+ in the first place. Point about prone is tricky, but what happens if you must do something but can't due to certain circumstance? I was under impression that you just skip the instruction and move on, although I can be wrong here...
Nothing happens, there is no way outside of the jump rule for a models base to leave the ground. This has been argued and discussed before and the model is and must be UNC on the wall. That does usually mean it may as well be dead unless you have C+ Docs/Engs
