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Vedic Named Personalities [speculation]

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Contaminator, Apr 4, 2018.

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  1. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Precisely what will horrify Aleph, if she discovers it, is how THAT is the Evolved Intelligence's state: all the Ur are the EI, kinda like the Supreme Intelligence of the Kree.

    And incidentally, I have said several times in the old forum that is more than likely that Aleph has sent some ships through the empty vacuum of space with human minds and an iteration of itself to mind them to ensure that, even if the CA defeats the Human Sphere, Humanity lives on!

    Very right conclusion: while the Bureau Toth has the mission of, among other things, keep Aleph in check, not only are the people there not hostile to her (thus not actively looking for the smaller excuse to voice more concerns) but what would the Bureau do without Aleph? What would the Human Sphere do? At least the Nomads have a non-logical version of Maya, which is precisely the same foil Aleph uses against the EI with the greeks!
     
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  2. boquepasha

    boquepasha ALEPH is love, ALEPH is life, ALEPH is your friend
    Warcor

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    What makes you think Aleph hasn't already realized that and also realized that this is not the right way for the Ascension program? Something akin to the first Ur AI that left them behind, but being that Aleph is not programmed to seek that same goal, it wouldn't try to emulate the EI.
     
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  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Well, I don't know the extent of the knowledge of the EI that Aleph has. But it would certainly point that the Posthumans were part of his plans, and quickly discarded or stashed as a limited-"integration" option, not a solution to "save" humanity ^^
     
  4. Contaminator

    Contaminator Brigadier of Baguette Brigade

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    So like I said I have not read all the lore and am by no means an authority on it. But from what I have read there is an implication that Aleph is subverting human independence in some cases (killings, non-resurrections, etc) to guide humanity towards a greater good. Thats where this gets tricky in the idea of morality. On an individual level I think Aleph is probably in the grey area leaning towards the evil side. Willing to disregard human life (if I am understanding the lore correctly) for its own ends (regardless of what they might be) can be seen as evil. In the larger picture I think Aleph shifts back towards the middle if not good side. As a whole, humanity benefits from Aleph and is better off with it.

    I guess my thing is at what point do we decide what is good and what is bad? The large or the small? I don't claim to have the answers, I have my opinions. I am just trying to bring a little light to the reasons why people have different views in this case.

    Morality and good/evil can be very ambiguous sometimes :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
     
  5. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    See, anyone mind pointing at any fluff that indicates what actions aleph has taken that is evil or selfish with no benefits to humanity?

    There was building an army in secret to be able to use in paradiso a day after approval. That army turned out to be A.S.S. and while it was done without approval at first, it has been shown to be objectively a good thing for everyone that aleph did due to the impact at paradiso.

    There is a ton of complaints in the book on arachnet how aleph is the antichrist, is controlling the people and has sinister plans.

    But antichrist is an unmeaserable belief that relates to no fact in the story, so pure propaganda.

    Controlling people. Every government and cooperation since the beginning had been doing this to the people. Its a way to keep the status quo and keep unrest down. This is a good thing as long as there is people's choices allowed in there as a small amount of wiggle room. We already live in societies today where the government, media, and corperations try to manipulate our actions. But i have not seen any action by aleph to do the same real life things in a way that is more restricted than real life or with ulterior motives that proves more sinister for the populace than basic compliance to the status quo.

    And that follows to the sinister plans. What sinister plans have we seen aleph do that couldn't easily be described as just a secretive plan that result with humanity being in a better place. As shown with steel being built in secret, aleph does things people do not know about, but it was a good thing steel was built.

    As an example, Having a black ops mission to destroy a nuclear reactor in Japan before uprising due to it was likely to have a catastrophic shutdown and release radioactivivity during the fighting. This would be bad for yujing and jsa amd they wouldnt necessarily know why but that action could save lives later during the uprising. I see this action as a good one. Just not a nice one.
     
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  6. stargorger

    stargorger Well-Known Member

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    *sigh*. There are so many things about what you just said that I hate and disagree with at a fundamental level that further discussion is impossible. I have no desire to talk with someone with such fundamentally opposite belief systems.

    Here is the key part. And you're absolutely right. If we as players don't agree on these things then yeah, our interpretation of which units/factions/etc are 'good' or 'bad' (or even whether such concepts exist) are going to be wildly different from person to person :) Which is why my opinion is that one should play 'to the setting', rather than interpreting games/fluff from our own personal cultural lens. In short, IMO, to enjoy a game world fully, one must decide to 'submit' to the narrator/author's intent. In Infinity, Gutier is god and his writings are the sacred book. He alone determines who is good or bad and why. From that perspective, what he has explicitly said is ALEPH is good. That means whether you/I/we like certain things about ALEPH or that ALEPH has done, it is still good. *shrug*. Just how it is.

    If Gutier decides that with the release of OSS ALEPH is purposefully 'becoming a bit evil' (I'm not saying that's the case, just saying 'IF'), then we will have a new factor to consider :)
     
    #86 stargorger, Apr 6, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  7. boquepasha

    boquepasha ALEPH is love, ALEPH is life, ALEPH is your friend
    Warcor

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    I've seen you've dismissed and also ostrasized all comments which are not akin to your point of view. I'd like to remind you that neither you nor any of us here has the "absolute truth", and is better netiquette to be polite with others opinions even if they are not like yours, than simply bashing away. But don't worry, even if you don't want to talk to us, we will still be here, so be a good guy and keep in line with the topic.
     
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  8. jherazob

    jherazob Well-Known Member

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    Do you have a better argument than "i disagree so blocked lol"? Disagreements are fine and enriching, substandard grade school debating tricks are not
     
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  9. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Wow, you're so wrong that it is not even funny.

    For one thing, you don't know exactly what the author wanted. When did he say that Aleph is "good"? The texts are written in obviously propaganda piece tone, just like almost everything else in Infinity (different styles of propaganda, but propaganda nonetheless - and I use propaganda here merely meaning pushing a particular viewpoint, not that it is absolute lies). There is also the rumour that he refused to include pieces in RPG fluff showing Aleph as "evil", which is a good move - but does not make it "good". Which brings me to:
    Second, not everything is binary divided into "good" and "evil"; there is a whole spectrum of possibilities. Also, related, just because something isn't "good" doesn't immediately make it "evil", and vice-versa.
    Third, even if author flat out stated/wrote that X is "good" or "evil", that does not make the actions themselves "good" or "evil". There is plenty of fiction where it is intended for a character to be good, yet their actions are consistently "evil" - even if the author thinks they are "good". Actions, or at least intentions in some form, are what makes a person (thing?), rather than proclamations.
    Fourth, very importantly, not everyone agrees on what is "good" or "evil"; hence interpretations will wary.
     
  10. stargorger

    stargorger Well-Known Member

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    It's no debating trick, I simply have no desire to continue discussion. Read what I wrote (how many times do I have to say that on this board?). I said that our base views/assumptions are too different to allow real discussion. I have no time or interest for bashing my head against a wall. Do you?
     
  11. stargorger

    stargorger Well-Known Member

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    You say, as you come and comment just to criticize mine.

    I have not done so. The people I've ignored are those who cannot speak civily or logically. As your sweeping generalization and sarcasm likewise indicate.
     
  12. stargorger

    stargorger Well-Known Member

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    It's not obvious, or people wouldn't disagree with that would they?

    How many times can I also say 'you're wrong' until you change your mind? We can't. So instead let's just discuss the evidence.

    1. It's in the RPG. I can't find the exact line but it is explicitly said "ALEPH truly works for the benefit and enrichment of humanity". If you choose to read that as propoganda, ok. But I don't see why the 'that is accurate' view would be any less correct from the evidence we have.

    2. And that is why some people cannot really be debated/discussed with on this issue: see, I disagree with that assumption right there, so we are at an impasse.

    3. That's certainly true, but that leaves you with two options: either there are actions where the author does not explicitly state his intent (this is a good thing), in which case your view of the action being good or bad is entirely as valid as the next person's, or there are actions where the author DOES explicitly say so, in which case, again, you're left with either believing the author or not. I have yet to have anyone show me a direct written "this is something ALEPH did and it was bad", so it seems we mainly have option A. In which case, if we're told 'ALEPH is good', and then they do something you don't like, either you have to assume the author is purposefully lying or else the author's opinion of what is good is different from yours. If Gutier says "PanO is is a welfare state and that is great", but you don't like welfare states, well then you have to decide whether Gutier is lying (he doesn't actually think it but says it anyway), or whether you disagree that PanO is great then, because you personally don't like welfare states.

    4. Exactly what I just said in the post you qouted.

    I'm not against discussion: I'm against disrespectful and insulting people who have no consistency or logic behind their arguments.
     
  13. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I will be honest, I did not give much of a look in this thread because I said ok they will discuss about some Hindu deities and minor powers and how they could turn into units, what on earth? can't you have a discussion without it devolving in a mess?
     
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  14. tdc

    tdc ALEPH Fragment
    Warcor

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    can we just get back on topic or at least vaguely wishlisting new toys:)
     
  15. Contaminator

    Contaminator Brigadier of Baguette Brigade

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    People seemed to say they didn't want anything. No one suggested anything other than my initial post :shrug:
     
  16. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    From https://catalog.infinitythegame.com/aleph/ver/280807-0242-maruts-tag#menuAnchor
    In Hindu mythology, Maruts were fierce entities of the storm that caused the waters of the ocean to foam. In the Special Situations Section, Maruts are ALEPH’s ultimate combat incarnation.

    They are Remote presence TAGs, made in PanOceania but optimized with weapon designs using cutting edge human technology prototypes or captured alien technical components. Covered with weapons, huge, and amazingly strong, they have an imposing and menacing appearance. Maruts are loaded with combat Aspects when ALEPH considers it necessary to provide a serious show of force. They are often used as emissaries to deliver the strongest of messages, imposing their conditions on the few survivors of their attacks. The operations they carry out are spectacular and devastating, but no recordings of them exist. For the most part, all material related to Maruts is classified as Top Secret. In fact, many analysts question their existence. There is no evidence of official reports related to them, as any information relating to Maruts is automatically erased by ALEPH from Maya and also from all government nets…

    Then we go to the RPG, pg 196, SSS Action Frame box, entry #10 demands all members of Aleph's operations to be identified . Entry #7 demands that O-12 approves gear and weapons (lol, they have all nanopulsers, forbidden by the human rights charte O-12 claims to defend).

    Also, the SSS introductory paragraph (same page) starts with:
    The S.S.S. was created to act as a specialised law
    enforcement agency, uniquely trained and equipped
    to track and hunt down (and eliminate with all
    due prejudice) any and all illegal activities con-
    cerning AI research


    From Atalanta's background on https://catalog.infinitythegame.com...4-atalanta-agema-s-nco-and-spotbot#menuAnchor

    ...or maybe she really has something to hide behind that icy façade… There is no accessible data about Atalanta’s origin and she is frequently found “on leave”, disappearing for some time without the slightest explanation. The rest of the Homeridae suspects the hunter of the team engages in black-ops directly for ALEPH. Nevertheless, every time someone asks Atalanta about it, the answer is a cold silence… There is a never a resolution to the mystery of this icy sharpshooter, because, even if her extra-curricular operations were confirmed, that would not answer the real question: Is there something more to Atalanta than what is seen? Something other than being the AI’s private executioner? And, most importantly… what is the true nature of her bond with ALEPH?

    Just some examples that not all is shine and roses, people.

    Only children think you can make an omelette without breaking the eggs. And crazy occult scientist working for an undisclosed occult organization in another universe, called The Laundry, but I digress... Way past midnight here and I've been up and running since six in the morning.
     
  17. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Oh, dont misunderstand, i acknowledged in my post aleph doing black ops. But we have not seen anything sinister from those black ops.

    In my previous post i talked about steel. It was implied that aleph built the A.S.S before it was authorized. This action ultimately is a benefit to the human sphere however.

    As for the nanopulsers. I find the 0-12 tag against certain weapons very inconsistent. We have our nagas train with accemento with mines, we give devas to neoterra that has nanos.

    We built joan, sun tze, saladin, and wallace and they all have nanopulsers.

    As for the maruts design, we don't know if 0-12 has knowledge of it. But from the statement that it is classified as top secret, it seems fair to say that the 0-12 handlers know about it.
     
  18. Contaminator

    Contaminator Brigadier of Baguette Brigade

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    From the Cambridge Dictionary: Black Ops [noun] - Secret military activities, especially illegal ones, that are ordered by a government or organization but that they will not admit to having ordered. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/black-ops
     
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  19. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps i'm being terrible at explaining things. We know aleph has done illegal things. Hell in that same post you quoted, i stated that steel phalanx was created before it was approved, which was illegal as aleph wasn't approved for a military division.

    What i am saying is what black ops do we know or have good guesses that aleph partook in that have negatively impacted (I've been using the word sinister) the human sphere? Or what action do we think aleph took that doesn't make aleph "good" aligned even if not as lawful as one would expect.

    And i am excluding all black ops actions that damage or are violent actions towards nomads. such as wotan having us blow up the nomads ship.
     
  20. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    As far as we know, Aleph has only acted in the best interest of humanity as a whole. Now, thats very different than whats in the best interest of any one faction. Just ask the nomads.
     
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