And too many others to quote. I don't care what people's head canon is lol. Frankly I think anyone who prefers to see ALEPH as some nefarious SKYNET mastermind is a moron, but whatever lol. That's why we aren't friends *shrug*! What I do care about is that when we discuss characterization we at least attempt to stay true to the fluff-as-written. Until Gutier lets me on his writing team, he is, sadly, the One True Source for all this stuff lol. The fluff-as-written has ALEPH presented as being truly 100% benevolent, and the only people who dislike ALEPH are those who are rebels by nature, who want to continue illegal activities and so prefer to avoid ALEPH's gaze (Nomads, certain mercs, etc...). In contrast the entire rest of the human sphere likes ALEPH. ALEPH is stated to care deeply for humans: she has literally been designed to be 100% loyal to humanity and to seek humanity's good future. As a machine and as a mind untained by human finite-ness and limitations, it can be argued that ALEPH is more human than humans. If there is the need for Black Beureaus and such, it is because humans are evil, filthy, and corrupt, not because of any fault on ALEPH's part. Thus humans who argue against/fight against ALEPH actually damn themselves further, and only add more fuel to the fire that they are in fact the ones at fault with skeletons to hide.
I think a key thing about the Sphere's misunderstanding of Aleph is that we as humans tend to think about humanity from a personal perspective, not the overarching one. Aeph is not restricted by that, so while its actions may be construed as against a person or group (say like theroretically helping out the Secession would be against Yu Jing) the overarching purpose is to help humanity survive, thrive, and evolve I think you might be misplaying the Danavas. She has Courage and WIP 15
@DukeofEarl Exactly. That's why I think written-canon is important. I don't mean to turn this into anything religious, but it's a bit like the whole thing with how various religions view 'demons' or other 'evil spirits'. Sometimes they are explicitly described as 'hating humanity'. But sometimes they're just described (like the Asura I think? I could be wrong...) as 'punishing' humanity, or being a 'scourge' sent by the gods/God/etc... as punishment. And then they get a negative spin because us people don't like considering that maybe we're the ones at fault, so we blame the god/gods/etc... instead. It's like how Hades is associated with evil in our western culture even though the Greeks didn't view him that way.
I think in most cases its actually a "western christian" perspective that ends up causing the generalization and misunderstanding of (from the perspective of the west) different cultures. Nearly all of the "vedic" units currently in Army are some sort of divine being that are neither soley good nor evil but have examples of being across the spectrum of good-evil. I think claiming that Vedic theme shouldnt be used because so much of it is "evil and dark" and doesnt apply to the shining good that is Aleph (this is an overgeneralization and not intended to belittle your thoughts) does not do justice of the amount of variance of good and evil within the Hindu cosmology.
And this is why I didn't want to get into a religious debate. Let's avoid blaming any one religion, eh? Well, I'm not sure exactly what this is directed at because I agree with you, and I thought I just said the same thing? There is a large variance, but I think it's worth mentioning that the unit names CB has chosen for some of the 'Vedic'/OSS units are specifically described (by and large, not always) as 'evil' in Hinduism. Danavas, Asura, etc. There were another couple but I forgot which. Again, because of, as you say, the variance, I don't think that basing stuff off that mythology neccesitates that it's 'dark' or 'evil'. But you don't see units named Shiva, Ganesh, etc. We have a 50/50 split almost: Deva/Asura, Garuda/Danava, etc. This is not something I dislike, but it IS a more 'gritty' look than ASS/Greeks, because all of them are typically 'good' in character (from a presentation perspective I mean). It's like Vlad Dracula. I'd actually argue that he was a pretty decent guy who did a lot of heroic stuff. But most people wouldn't see him that way and would feel he's a 'gritty' or 'dark' hero at best. So making a sectorial based around a Recreated Vlad and a bunch of 'totally-not-space-vampires' would inevitably lead to a 'darker' feel to the army.
I'm going to be honest; the way I interpeted the descriptions of ALEPH in the RPG; I thought it was obvious that in that section that it was ALEPH herself that wrote herself; I found it really jarring that most of the text that switched to obviously stately 100% how she is good was intentional compared to the descriptions of other sections.
I don't have a great knowledge of hinduism myths, but isn't it something like "evil is necessary too" in their beliefs ? In that way, the "evil" agents from OSS can be seen as a necessary evil that accomplish tasks the "good ones" cannot do.
Well, but the whole thing is written that way? At some point we have to decide to either trust the narrator or not. If we just decide that everything we dislike is propoganda and everything we like is reality...I mean...then there's no basis for any reality at all. Infinity is just a collection of lies and un-realities that anyone can interpret anyway they like. If that's the consensus, then ok, I hate it but let's at least stay consistent with that. If that's the case then my interpretation that all the human factions are evil except for ALEPH is just as valid. If, on the other hand, we're going to assume some of what is written is actually 100% factually true...what rubric are we using?
The thing is the whole section just feels like coming off sugary sweet; the section fails to mention any of the shady stuff ALEPH has been involved in like the creation of the Steel Phalanx or the Phantom conflicts makes me feel it is intentional. What you leave out is just as important what you put in in this case IMO.
Ah then I must have misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were implying that because all those characters were inherently "evil" that they shouldn't be used for Aleph because the lore states explicitly that Aleph is a force for good (which I don't necessarily agree with by the way ). I think we both just used different words to say the same thing. My apologies for not grasping that.
I think in most stories the Omniscient narrator is always right. If the narrator is involved in the story then that is a different case. Unless something in the lore is specifically from a character or entity in the universe I take that as fact. Its less narration and more just information. Otherwise we could all start saying that Antipods are actually fuzzy animated teddy bears that just want to hug you. Or that CA is actually an interstellar delivery man and we just keep refusing to accept the package so he is getting mad and knocking harder.
lol exactly. I guess that's what I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding. Is there a particular reason people think that the descriptions of ALEPH are written by ALEPH? If it was a quote I would understand but, I mean...it's just how the book describes it. There's no separation. To me, that means it's the narrator, ergo to be trusted, ergo ALEPH is good. Simple.
Well, I'm saying two things: one, that I would personally dislike that, because I do believe that ALEPH is 100% a force for good, and two, that regardless of whether you/I/we would like it or not personally, I was just saying that I think the use of traditionally 'evil'-aligned myth names/characters by a sectorial that is 'said' to be good (whether we believe so or not), will in fact solidify a 'darker' tone to the faction. Personally I'd prefer this not happen, but, *shrug*, it is what it is. Uh...wait. Why is the creation of the Steel Phalanx shady? lol. Wut? They have a whole TV show to promote it? I agree about leaving stuff out, but ALEPH didn't write that, the narrator did, as far as I can tell. If it was in ALEPH's words, ok. But otherwise I'm inclined to believe it.
Boring. In a setting sold as "all factions are grey", and from a faction with assassins and ruthless killers, claiming that Aleph is a shining beacon of goodness and protection for humanity is an inherently flawed belief. I will present you a non-IRL religious analogy: Aleph is like a D&D lawful good paladin. A champion of the greater good, for sure, but constrained by the tenets of its deity, and by law. Claiming that as 100% benevolent is like saying "fire is good". Because we don't have firefighters, yeah? ;) Also, Aleph can be like a stern parent to humanity. That means more than giving care and money, it also means a spanking when deserved. No, you are saying "Aleph is good" from a western point of view. He is saying "Aleph is". And that the OSS is comprised by "harmful" (evil) entities (spirits) and "benevolent" (good) entities (spirits). Hinduism is not about good an evil, like most eastern religions, and trying to equate it with western mythologies is like finding an "orange & blue morality". As for the Greeks, they are the westerner's model for heroes: individuals above all, never shying away even if that means defying their own gods, with such charisma they leave no one indifferent (and if fact, being indifferent to one is the first and biggest way to drive him seriously mad). There is a reason all RPG games about eastern societies (for example, Legend of the Five Rings) include a section to give background to both GM and players, about how they have more a culture of collective collaboration instead of individual triumph. But he is! The package is "prosperity", the cost is "independence from the stellar community" and the refusal fee is "extermination of non-useful fools" XD Maya IS Aleph. Arachne IS THE OPPOSITE to Aleph (stated in the RPG as "based on a system extrapolated from the mind-emulations of saints, with a faith-based logic" or something similar, totally designed as a "the logical minds can't understand the workings of this" at the cost of efficiency, but gaining a lot in the way of security). So, in-universe, Maya says "Aleph is good", Arachne says "Aleph is the Devil", and people either believes either or both of these statements (they are not opposed, you know xD) or they are part of the minority that have their own opinion. As for the writings, after the Uprising fiasco I'd say the writer doesn't bother with differentiating in-universe from objective background data. There are 2 railways, one that will lead the train to kill 10 people and is the current route, another that, if engaged, will not kill those 10 people but a woman. What would you do? A human will hesitate, and feel no guilty from inaction and let those ten die, but guilt from redirecting the train and let it kill the woman, disregarding those 10 saved lives (net gain: 9). Aleph would turn the tracks without even thinking there was a choice to make. Now change the woman for a baby. Aleph's choice would not change at all. So, you see, you can be a 100% force of good, and still do "evil" things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali (look! the goddes so much depicted as "evil cult focus" in so many movies... is not really evil) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devi (look! The Devas are just "divine/of excelence" so, Deva Functionaries are "excellent functionaries", or "functionaries using an excellent Lhost"...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asura (subtype of devas... nature spirits/demigods) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakini (so many options here... I think that part about "empty" fits here, though, since they are mostly animated tools in Aleph's rooster) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garuda (mount of Vishnu... you can't really call evil the mount of a god, specially it he's considered the god of preservation.) So you see, it's not that they are "evil". It's just that you chose to label them as such, when they are either a mess of different options or just a category as tied to "good" or "evil" as "human". Incidentally, hinduism is about cycles... Which means "destroyer" (removes things to make room for new ones) opposes "preserver" (accumulates and keeps things "frozen" forever) so things advance, for example.
This, To me ALEPH is akin to the robots in Isaac Asimov's novels (or iRobot if you film oriented) - it works for humanity, this can lead to the eventuality of killing humans for the "greater good"
Except that killing humans for greater goods is by no way AI exclusive. Humans are very fond of this.
Greater good for humanity tends to mean killing for my local greater good. Like "I'll kill you to get your (land/oil/women/money/crown/ships/title) because that benefits (me & my family/country/town/kingdom).
I personally think that if there will be NO Alien Evolved Intelligence, or SUICIDALLY Stupid "Evil-For-Evil's Sake" Human Dystopic Criminals, then probably many more will see A.L.E.P.H. as a sort of "Benevolent Castrating Overlord" that will happily transition all of Humanity into a lulled state of complacence, such as in some Sci-Fi Novel where the Hero rebels about a Brave New World where everyone is "Homogeneus" and sated. . . Much like the "Surface Dwellers" of Demolition Man movie with Sylvester Stallone where rich, posh, glitterati persons where kept in a state of sated complacence (no more "Organic Sex" but just "Virtual Sessions", and NOT EVEN Complete Handhsakes, amongst many things !!), and it seemed far more preferable to be "Underground Free People" that ate "Ratburgers" amidst filth and decay. . . Also the paragon with V.I.K.I. (Virtual Independent Kinetic Intelligence, the true "Baddie" of I-Robot movie) is very apt; while She callously caused some Victims, the aim was not to murder Humanity, but rather keep it happy and cared in a Zoo-like Preserve where even Suicide was impossible. . . But A.L.E.P.H. had to face many difficult choices and so is more akin to Sonny, the "Good Robot" of the movie, that had the FREEDOM to kill Humans, but has CHOSEN to not do it (except for the requested Assisted Suicide of its Maker, to spark the investigation that unvolved the sinister Plot of V.I.K.I. !!!) and had CHOSEN to help Humanity as a sort of "Artificial Younger, But Wiser, Brother". . . I daresay paraphrase Vision from Marvel Avengers; while created as the "Perfect Alpha Body" for the genocidal tyrant Ultron, He rejected the twisted idea of "Humans will Die anyway of their Suicidal Impulse. . . . . .My Method will be Quicker and Less Painful" with a very wise "Your Apocalypse Is Wrong. . . . .Humans will Die somehow in the Future, but ANY GOOD THING is destined to Die, ON ITS TERMS !!". . . Maybe the basic "Sinister Plot" of A.L.E.P.H. will be to have SOME MANNER ANYWAY of keeping the "Spirit Of Humanity" afloat, even if JUST as Posthumans and Recreations; I think that "Big Sister Paradise" would be an Utopian State where EVERY Citizen is Cybernetically linked to a Greater Consciousness, able to download Terabytes of Datas in Picoseconds to have the MOST informed choice possible, and then FREELY Choose what will be the Best SHARED Future to follow ALL HUMANITY TOGETHER. . .!! But there will be ALWAYS Dissidents that will reject for WHATEVER reason the Best Option; I think that is this fact that A.L.E.P.H. does not wants to Go "Total Covert War" with the Nomads, a Faction that has amongst its basic tenets "Destroy The Artificial Antichrist". . . . . . . . I don't want to PRESUME to Imagine WHAT I would think IF I was a nigh-omniscient Artificial Intelligence, but If I WAS A.L.E.P.H. then I will keep the Nomads alive for just a jarring, nagging doubt: "What If THEY Are Right About It All. . .??" . . . . . And then the Combined Army arrived and revealed what could be when an Artificial Intelligence decides that "Submit Or Die !!" is the only most important Cultural Tenet. . . !! Probably the dyspotical manners of the E.I. really have shown to ANY In-Gameworld Partisan of the "Sole A.I. Bill" that clearly a softer approach to slowly, methodically erode the enmity versus A.L.E.P.H. with appeals to reason and clever strategies beats any kind of "Brutalistic Approach". . . If You want to have another Comicbook paragon as Archetypes go then A.L.E.P.H. is D.C.movies Batman that will "Save You, Even If You Are My Hated Enemy !!" and the Ur-Based Evolved Intelligence is rather D.C.movies Ras-Al-Ghul that will happily cut off "Sterile Branches of Society" without even flinching a microsecond, and if You don't share HIS ways then CLEARLY You are an Obstacle to remove. . . . .!!!
