PanO vs. Yu Jing

I actually started back in 2006 with buying both PanO and YJ starter boxes. And a couple other things here and there, like TAGs and REMs.

But that damn PanO rifle design still annoys me to the point that the one PanO force I want to collect (a Mercedarian Order combat rescue team led by de Fersen) isn't going to have a single combi or multi rifle model on the table, and it's using the old boarding shotgun, too.

For me the big difference profile-wise was that PanO troops were always superfocused in whatever their thing was; but that YJ troops made a better army, they had better 'assisting someone else' abilities.

 

The models are what draw most people to Pano. Anyone whos an appleseed fan probably already has a Pano army. Pano is very simple to play and a bit repetitive. Which is why the Pano sectorials are so popular and why Pano has the most sectorials. They add spice to what can be a bland army.

If we are taking about just generic armies:

Yu Jing

- Some of the best aggressive LT backed up by CoC
- a good combination of skills and equipment
- cheap orders and warbands
- best assortment of HI in the game
- Guilang are one of the best infiltrators in the game, being anti-camo themselves.
- Tiger - above average AD
- Great MSV 2/Sensor options.

Pano

- Joan of Arc, one of the best LTs in the game.
- Limit but useful options in LI, MI, HI.
- Crocmen are one of the best TO camo infiltrators in the game. They add a lot to a Pano force
- Nisse - as compensation for no smoke we get one of the best MSV 2 units in the game
- the generic army most dependent on their REMs
- Bulleteers best attack REM in the game, Peacemaker are our cheapest infiltrator, Pathfinder is a fast wip 13 specalist, and Fugazi are our cheapest order (flashpulse is a great defense)
- A force full of units that are deadly. Other armies focus on a few key attackers backed up by toolbox units and warbands.
On the other hand, Pano is full of units that only do one thing, win FtF rolls. You often can out shoot your opponent and
for less orders than other armies that rely on tricks like CC and hacking which tend to take more orders.
- Odd ball advantage but Pano is the best faction for running dual TAG lists.

Overall, Pano and Yu Jing play very similarly. Yu Jing has much more flexibility in its generic army but Pano is very order efficient because winning firefights is often the least order intensive option.

 

PanO has never really appealed to me, despite being a TAG lover, but PanOs models just seem dated - although the Uhlan and Tikbalang bring promises of change. But in general it looks more like a few models, i’d like to paint, than an army i’d play.

Yu Jing has a nice blend of cannonfodder and big guns. And although they haven’t got a TAG I like, the SU-Jian is a really cool concept and model. And they have Ninjas.

 

I've started infinity with Acontecimento, because the sectorial theme appealed to me. I've branched out into MO and played a few games with Neoterra, but right now I'm scaling PanO to SAA only, and I'll probably expand on other armies. Never played YJ, but looked closely at IS at one point and another. So I'll be talking only about PanO:

+ Optimized for shooting in a shooting game - high BS, many units with some kind of visual modifier.
+ Units are usually very focused on one task, with little to no unnecessary bloat.
+ Strong hi-tech options: Remotes, HIs and TAGs. This also makes for a very mobile force, since Remotes and TAGs are fast.
+ Some of the best TAGs in the game, with different specialties for different uses.
+ Visually striking, with unified look that speaks "regular, professional army". Especially recent HI sculpts radiate power.
+ With full access to Cubes and Remote Presence healing or repairing our units is reliable, even with lower than average WIP.
+ Auxbots. Fast, disposable, hard-hitting with their Heavy Flamethrowers.
+ Inclusion of Aleph units in 2/3 of our sectorials. They bring a lot of tools to the table and help underscore close cooperation between factions.
+ Good hacking (especially in SAA). Few Pitchers or Deployable Repeaters, but a lot of Repeaters on Remotes, high AVA Fugazi (save MO), good choice of different Hacking Devices (again, save MO).

- Faction as a whole is a bit bland. It defaults to shooting, with few options to deal with obstacle in less direct way (Acontecimento is a notable exception; "Nomads who can actually shoot", indeed). It sometimes seems that CB's idea for our units is giving them +1 BS, Mimetism, and calling it a day, and it's clear that no designer is passionate and excited about working on PanO.
- There's a lot of role overlap between various HIs, to the point that some are obviously better most of the time, and the rest sees little play. This affects mostly knights, especially poor Teutons and Father-Knights. Another example are our drop troops, Akalis and Crusaders, which are almost carbon copies of each other.
- New units are hit-and-miss; Bolts are an obvious toolbox unit, but a bit overpriced and unwieldy for what it does. (Locusts, on the other hand, are quite good). Kamau redesign was a victim of the "+1 BS, Mimetism" philosophy.
- To fully make use of TAGs we have to play them often, and fielding a TAG changes the list considerably. It can get boring after a while (it's fun while it lasts, though). YJ focus on HIs makes creating varied lists easier.
- Save Joan and possibly De Fersen our characters are nothing to write home about. Rao is the most boring character in game, Singh got nerfed to the ground with HSN3 changes, Bipandra and Konstantinos are ok, but not particularly exciting.
- Combi Rifles on non-linkable, elite HIs are a headscratcher (Sepulchre Knight is the worst offender, followed by Father-Knight).
- New weapons and skills trickle very slow to us. Feuerbach (a PanO-made weapon), SMGs, Marksman Rifles, Breaker weapons? Very rare. Marksmanship, Biometric Visors, X-Visors, other shooting enchancing equipment? Very rare.
- Auxbots are underdeveloped as a concept. There could easily be 4-5 varieties of them, providing different tools and options. Non-lethal SWAT Auxbot. Recon Auxbot. Hacking Support Auxbot. Anti-TAG Auxbot. See the remark about CB designers not being very excited about PanO.
- No Smoke. There's no point to that limitation right now, not with all other limitations PanO has.
- No warbands or other cheap, disposable units to add variety to our tactics. Well, it comes with the "professional army" territory.
- Overabundance on melee weapons on models. You get a sword! You get a sword! You get a... knife! Everyone and his mom sports one. It makes models boring (too many of them) and harder to transport.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this -- certainly it's one of the factions who can put their TAGs in a duo (Geckos) or Haris (Xeodrons) and where they are affordable enough to do those things? The cheapest pair of PanO TAGs possible is the Seraph and Tik, and that's still 167 points.

 

Geckos and Xeodrons are more like 3 wound HI than TAGs. Theres a guide about how to run dual TAG lists with Pano. One MBT TAG backup by a light TAG (thats more mobile). It works really well and plays quite differently than a Gecko lists.

 

I really can't see this being effective. You're 200 points and most of your SWC in TAGs -- how do you afford KHD units to deal with Assault Hackers, or even enough orders to fill a combat group?

 

Shock Army of Acontecimento
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

10
DRÃGAO Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon, Heavy Flamethrower / . (2.5 | 94)
CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
TIKBALANG HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / AP CCW. (2 | 85)
CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
NAGA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
REGULAR (Sapper) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 22)
REGULAR Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
REGULAR Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
REGULAR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
REGULAR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

6 SWC | 299 Points

Open in Infinity Army

Used this against Phalanx not so long ago. It was very effective. Dragao for forcing my way through strongpoints, Tikbalang for flanking and then acting as a big, durable distraction.

Geckos or Xeodrons are nice, but can't match the maneuverability or firepower of real TAGs.

 

Also adding that, when I first started playing PanO years ago, it was "pragmatic and generous, although a little bit arrogant", but now it's almost a fanatical genocidal when not ridiculous faction, lorewise.

 

I saw the Aquila and the Swiss Guard and decided that wanted to play NCA to field them both often, every list started with those 2 sporting HMG for like 6 month.....

Slowly started with vainilla because of Joan, stayed there because of the Crocman (an addiction im trying to break).

Right now im fooling around with Soldier Of Fortune, trying all the smoke and cheap orders we where denied for so long.... and its FUN AS HELL

 

In what way is Pano fanatically genocidal? Where does this come from?

 

Could you elaborate on this point a little more, specifically about the Father Knights? I've used the Spitfire (both normal and LT) and the Assault Hacker profiles to great effect in vanilla, so other than the use of combi-rifles on the other profiles, i'm not sure what the issue with father knights is.

 

You mean beyond them being expensive units with massive bloat and poor synergy?

Yeah, that's super confusing.

...

But, generally speaking I'd say the OP is pretty much on the money.

Those are actually pretty good summaries of the two factions.

 

Actually, I find the Father Knight a pretty useful model. Hes CC skill might seem like bloat but one of the best ways to kill Pano HI is CC and BTS attacks (hacking, E/M) which he has better defenses against. Hes basically a super Orc. I just wish we had better access to eclipse smoke, might be easier to make use of its high CC skill then.

Sure, they are not ideal units but Infinity is not game where you need perfection for a unit to work well.

 

For me the main question is always: "what is the purpose of this unit". And Father-Knight, sadly, has absolutely no purpose. It does exactly the same thing that other knights do, but lacks their advantages - exchanging them for more niche ones instead. The only stats that stand out are ARM and BTS; sadly with the amount of various ammo type flying around the increase in durability is negligible. As for skills: Assault can be useful, but without any other CC skill even high stats make CC a gamble, and no MA means no Stealth. Weapon choice ranges from nothing to write home about to abysmal; BS and Spitfire are ok, but we can get them on better equipped units, like Hospitallers or Santiagos. Missile Launcher looks like it could be good - BS 14 ARM 5 HI makes for a good ARO unit in theory, but the numbers clearly show, that it won't stop an average HMG-equipped unit for long. As for Combi Rifles - the person who came up with the idea that they're good weapons for elite HIs deserves a solid kick in the butt. FO and hacker are - again, in theory - good, durable specialists. But we can get better ones for the same price, not to mention that even BTS 9 isn't much of a defence against KHD on a good unit.

For me F-K are interesting concept that got shafted by its execution. It simply brings nothing unique and useful enough to choose him over other units. With better choice of weapons, some command & control skills to match its fluff, and ability to link with other units it would be useful. Right now - it's a beautiful model to proxy other knights with.

 

Aleph's Asura agrees, no matter she is a H+, she should carry a Multi :/

 

I think maybe I am just blinkered by the success I've had with it and how I use those 2 profiles (spitfire and hacker). if it's not too much trouble could you show some examples of where the other knights (or HI) would make a better platform for the chosen task in vanilla?

For example, when using the assault hacker, I would usually back it up with a crocman FO, a bunch of remotes (bulleteers, fugazi, pathfinders) and a hexa KH. Which has worked quite well for me with info-war focused lists, and It feels like everything synergises really well. But if there is a better way to achieve the same result, it would be great to know.

 

I can't answer for Stiopa, but I think it comes down to the Frenzy discount. Both the HIs he mentioned have Frenzy, which makes them far less durable once they kill something.

However, I find that Frenzy is a very easy rule to forget about, so it often doesn't come into play. Further your opponent often doesn't know about it, so if you forget about it, you're unlikely to get called on it. It can also be tricky to track which units have killed something during the game.

I've usually had to remind opponents multiple times about removing units that had Dogged, remembering that something with Frenzy killed something seems much more challenging.

Probably the best thing would be for either the rule to be removed, or modified to kick in after turn 1, rather than triggering on kill. Another option would be to force your opponent to put yet another marker on a unit that was now frenzied. Unfortunately Frenzy doesn't kick in until your next active turn, so a marker is problematic as well.

Anyway, Frenzy effectively gives the Hospitalier and Santiago knights a substantial discount, which makes them much cheaper, and on a practical level, without penalty.

Personally I like the Father Knight. I think Assault has a slight edge over Martial Arts, though it would be nice to have both. +1 ARM isn't amazing, but it's worth a point or two, particularly on a BS14 unit. The Breaker Pistol is an upgrade from a regular pistol.

I agree it's disappointing there are no MULTI Rifles, particularly since the MULTI-rifle is now viable, which it was not in N2 when the unit was released. There's also an argument to be made that CB overvalues ARM to some extent, Arianda Mormaers seem to also be over priced for similar reasons.

The Missile Launcher profile is an odd setup, but it almost works when combined with Assault. Maybe a Assault pistol instead of a Breaker Pistol would be an improvement here.

 

Place a Frenzy marker by the side of the model once it fulfills the requirements and change it for the Impetuous marker at the next orders check phase... Also, miniatures with Fury levels ignore them while in a fireteam...

Place a wound marker near the dogged unit... they have a single wound, and it's not the Unconscious marker so you know something is up...

This is totally incorrect. If people around you forget this stuff, use the markers that already exist in ways that reminds you the rules...