I've recently been having a ton of fun with my Ayyar SMR and Al Fasid HMG. Due to this, I've turned my eye to the Azra'il, and am curious about which profile the community likes more/gets more use out of. The AP HMG, or the Feuerbach? Why?
AP HMG cos the feurbach is one of the last models I need for my collection I have had great success running a hafza as a janisary doctor in total cover nearby - it provides a target/bait that they want to kill first and they never expect a hafza spitfire/HRL to pop out and blast them from the other angle.
As ever, you'll get the same answer every question about Infinity gets. "It depends" The AP HMG is the superior active turn choice, and is capable of Suppressive Fire, but the Feueueurerebach has a terrifying ARO, and is better at sniping things in the 32"+ rangeband. If you already have an HMG or two in your list the Feueueurerebach probably complements you better. If you already have a strong ARO presence then the AP HMG is the better choice, if you want to decide on looks then I like the Feueueurerebach the best.
Colbrook beat me to it, I just wanted to write almost the same. It would also depend on the Mission and Faction I face and if I am playing Vanilla or Qapu. In missions where zones have to be controlled and I have expect a TAG, then its the AP-HMG, because I will have to get rid of him in active. In missions where I have to cover objectives with AROs and play Qapu, I want the Feuerbach. In missions where I need Anti Material, it can be very good to have the Feuerbach.
@colbrook @emperorsaistone I understand that each profile has different uses for different circumstances. I'm not asking which is better. What I'm asking is which profile you find yourself getting more use out of. That may depend on the types of games/lists you run more frequently, but I find it more interesting when players provide feedback about profiles they find themselves consistently playing with.
Vanilla wise, my list usually runs on a Djan HMG with Ghazi smoke to deal with big targets. I find that more reliable and versatile than the APHMG Azra’il option. Did try to use the Azra’il as an ARO option though, but more often than not I’ll pull him out and replace with more infiltrators.
In most of my experience, the AP HMG is the superior choice in so many ways, however, ive always done best with the feuerbach. He even has earned the title of REM-killer. Meh against most troopers, but he annihilates rems everytime i use him. Beat a buffed TR drone in active turn and then next turn ARO'd the helper bot sent to heal it. Unfortunately that meant he would have to send his engineer in, which i whiffed my rolls against.
In my QK lists (which I play the most) the APHMG does not feature as frequently as the Feuerbach one ... I own 2 Feuerbachs for linking with Hafzas, but that sadly is not an option any more the APHMG is fun, but I usually get better use out of Djan HMG ... complemented by Feuerbach Azra'il
I've played many times with Haqq's Fatties in Vanilla - Ahl Fasseds and Azra'ils. I even played with them in whole season of our regional Pomeranian Infinity League (6 tournaments) some time ago and used at least one of them in every tournament (and even won the league). I usually build my army with few stample SWC units, like Djan HMG + Kasym (as an option to destroy links), Lasiq sniper (or Knauf from time to time), Shihab. The fatties were used as an additional heavy guns. With such an experience I came to this conclusion: - if thinking about taking active killer, additional heavy guy to rooster, able to tank a hit and punish enemies, I prefer AzRa'il AP HMG over Fassid HMG. Simply because AP gives him an edge against other tough enemies and because of the difference in points cost is really big. Fassy has more options with his LGL, smoke, mines et cetera, but it didn't do much difference in my games, and the points saved let me make better army lists. - if thinking about a unit that can be an ARO threat and with a bit more interesting gun, than plain HMG, I usually take Fassy HRL over AzRa'il FB. Heavy Rocket Launcher is great against links, clustered enemies and it's option to ignore cover bonus to ARM makes a difference. The additional SMG lets Fassy hunt close enemies, get farther into battle zone and put suppressive. While the points cost increase is rather small with all the great stuff he gets. AzRa'il is a bit more scary in ARO with EXP ammo, yet it depends on situation. He's also a bit better on longer distances, but clearly worse up close. And he never really shined in my battles, while Fassy did some great deeds (like, after few orders with bad rolls in Face to Face of him against Joan, in the last order of the game - already won - he critted Joan of Arc with two beautiful 13 to hit and she burnt to death :D )... An advantage of AzRa'il is his 1,5 SWC cost, which sometimes help in builing the roster. To summary - to choose between the two AzRa'ils, I usually go to AP HMG. I find it a bit bad for Feuerbach, that in active turn the AP HMG is clearly better in AP hunting, since it can deal 4 DAM 15 SP hits, while Feuerbach can mostly score 4 DAM 14 AP hits... So it's only in ARO that FB can be better. And, to be honest, I definitely prefer the AP HMG model ;) :D PozdRawiam / Greetings P.S. In the times of second edition of Infinity the S2 AzRa'il with Feuerbach was my favourite HI in Haqq - cheap, dangerous. Used in almost all of my lists, in small and big tournaments. Now the big guys aren't my standard go - to units. I hope that maybe Hakims will get Akbar Doctor, making using big guys more interesting ;)
I am much the same way as @KedzioR_vo above. If I am vanilla, I will take the HRL Fased, if I am in QK, I would lean towards the Fuerbach mostly because I usually use an offensive link over a single model as an offensive piece. He is a good, cheap, strong ARO piece that threatens a wide array of models with adequate BS and WIP. I also simply do not use them much though as QK is VERY stream lined as a faction with good defensive haris options that would provide the extra burst or a defensive Djan sniper that provides MSV.
I agree. In Vanilla, i preffer cheap aro pieces like plain Ghulam sniper or HRL Muyib/Hafza. But when it comes to attack pieces, Azrail HMG is very often my pick. Ofc, in both Vanilla an QK he has strong competiton - DJ Bazan. But yeah, i value both FB and APHMG highly.
Too be honest the lose of the azrail fireteam is the main reason I don't play QK anymore. It was my favorite link and the main reason I played QK . I would be happy if they gave them special haris with up to 2 hafzas. Right now 2swc for a non-TAG solo model is little much. Especially when you have the Djanbzan hmg in the same sectoral. While I love the models, it's just not worth it play wise.
I have the Feuerbach model, but most of the times use it as the AP HMG; however, it is all circumstantial. When I'm going to keep the Azrail as an ARO piece and barely move her, I give her a Feuerbach and ARO with Exp Ammo. If I want her going hunting, and investing orders in her, then AP HMG is my weapon of choice. However, in all my time playing, poor Leticia (my Azrail) has only said Urgh!, Gah! or Bleargh! since she's more frequent than not the first thing that dies in turn 1.
I don't have great deal of experience with these models, but that's in part because of this issue right above. I fully understand using something like that in active turn, albeit Haqq variants having average BS and no extra mods don't feel right in that role. Al-fasids have more utility on that front, but may experience problems with delivering some parts of their kits. As for so-called "ARO profiles", this is where it gets bad. You aren't forward deploying ODD asshole in SF for half the price. Even if opponent generously allows you to throw your single die in your good rangeband, you're likely facing either B5 of something nasty or Assisted Fire with strong defensive mods on top (and compared to your ARM you pay for through the nose and that barely does anything unless it's ridiculously stacked and opponent does nothing about that, even basic 1 pt mimetism is rather strong). People like to give anecdotes about them critting in ARO and seeing that glorious "ARO ammo" doing its thing, but hey, if you want to gamble for those 5-12% with 40-50 pts model, your opponent will generally be only happy. All that doom and gloom is probably a bit misleading. Against powerful active piece life expectancy of anything will be no better than one of some 7 pts Daylami, so might as well throw those at that lane. But I do not think that big fat ARO pieces are supposed to replace chaff in its role. It seems to me that they have to be used differently... Since I have that scrubby flaw of really wanting to like things that have no business working in real metas no matter what game I play, I was thinking on the matter a bit, and would like to provoke some discussion about it here. So, apparently your single shot and some ARM isn't going to stop a dedicated attack piece no matter how much those cost to you. But it can dissuade other pieces from walking with impunity where you don't want them. As such, I would formulate the answer to "How do you Azrail/Fasid" kinda like this: (Warning: pure bare-faced theorycrafting that is also easier spouted than done) - Have table that is busy enough to meaningfully separate firelanes; - Play mission with several objectives that require interaction; - Predict the main attack path of your opponent along which he'll be sending his battering ram - your fatties don't go there, your chaff does; - Instead put them to watch important places that would require order-intensive reposition on your opponent's part in order to bring something nasty there, while hopefully stopping light specialists form trying to move in; - Generally hold them back on first turns when opponent's offensive potential is not damaged yet, later on you could go in and put your guy on suppressive there - odds will be better against battered remnants, and you'll be out of chaff by then anyway, but still having to put resistance. - As such, make sure you can kill important components of opponent's offense on your active turn, be it order base, buffing hackers, link members that provide bonuses etc., but that's what you do in almost every match anyway; - Positions with low fences and equivalents are a boon to you since it increases your chance of having anything left to doctor after opponent is done with your fatty as he drops prone; - Because you have doctor or his Nasmat on standby, right? (Although the aforementioned Hafza trap sounds hilarious) Hopefully it won't get to the last bullet: - Discover why these guys are relatively rare guests in tournament lists... I think? I would like to be proven wrong here though. And yeah, I'm sceptic about Azrail FB, so there's that.
I have never been a massive fan of dedicated ARO pieces, as I believe any committed attacker will have the advantage and be able to remove it. (Not including defensive fire teams - sometimes suppression). I have recently been thinking of the FB as a specialized attack piece geared specifically for removing hard targets. This, to me, seems like a poor value for so many points. However, I agree with @Barrogh, in that I have the "flaw" of really wanting to make non-competitive pieces work. What do you think of the FB as an attack piece? Obviously the fire-power isn't ideal, but would you use it in this role?
The FB profile was an attack piece but the 2B is just not enough. It needs the link to get to 3B to be pulled back into use. I do love the model.
I almost always go with Template weapons as my ARO pieces. Templates land if you hit your target number, no matter what. It might not affect the model shooting you but it will hit link team members or poorly placed models and can really punish link teams. HRL's, Missile Launchers, LRL, those are always my first choice ARO weapons. Fuerbachs are good....but it is one shot against an active piece on BS13. If they have mimitism, or shooting with a sniper from range, your going to be outshot. If they gave him TR, or Neurocinetics, then I would probably take him, but even then your on 2 dice which is still not great...
