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Sell me on the 'zone' thing

Discussion in 'Modiphius Entertainment' started by boquepasha, Mar 27, 2018.

  1. boquepasha

    boquepasha ALEPH is love, ALEPH is life, ALEPH is your friend
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    Greetings!

    I've been GMing games for more than I can remember, mostly on d20, Chaosium's d% and White Wolf's Story Teller systems, but I don't shy on trying every system I think can deliver a good story and lets my players have some fun.

    I've been reading thoroughly the rules for the Infinity RPG system, but I'm still not convinced on the whole 'zone' thing for warfare scenes. Don't mistake me, I think the system is flawless for infowar and psywar scenes, as there's no need for a specific correlation between zones and places. For gunfights however, I find it dificult to really correlate zones into the real world and keep it coherent with how it should really behave.

    Let's take for example a simple Restaurant with a terrace, a dining area, and the bar counter at the back (weird placement, but it works for me). We could define it as 3 zones, one of them without cover (the terrace), the next one with light cover and dificult terrain (the dining hall) and another one with heavy cover (the bar counter). In real life it would be no more than 10 meters from the bar to the terrace (30 feet more or less for those that measure things like that).

    By defining zones that way, a sniper rifle being shot at someone at the terrace from the bar counter would be firing on its optimal range, which is not how a real sniper rifle should behave. However, a hand pistol would be out of its optimal range, although it should be in real life.

    If I define things as a single whole zone, then I would have the issue of having multiple zone effects crammed into one, without a way to mechanicaly establish each zone effect on its own (I could simply handwave it as 'it takes a minor action to move across the dining hall even if it is the same zone, if you are at the bar you have heavy cover, and so on...)

    So being like that, what advantages does the whole 'zone' system bring to a firefight that cannot be easily done with just movement distances and accurate firing ranges for all weapons? Please, sell me on that point, as otherwise I will be forced to invest time to mod accurate distances in the game.

    TL, DR: I don't like the zone system for warfare scenes, tell me what advantages does it have over regular moving distances and firing ranges.

    EDIT: I used the word area instead of zone, my bad. Now it should be fine.
     
    #1 boquepasha, Mar 27, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
  2. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Don't worry about language, it's easy enough to follow either way.

    I'm a BIG fan of abstraction in my RPGs, because I never use miniatures and rarely maps but rely on the "theater of the mind".

    I find zones useful because they help keep area descriptions simple, and explain where combatants are in relation to one other in broad terms which are meaningful without the minor differences in how everyone at the table is picturing the scene in their mind having negative impacts on gameplay.

    I also find them useful to represent the differing environments in which combat takes place, where sometimes a 50m gap will be nothing and crossed in moments (or shot across with ease) while at other times that distance could be the most extreme range possible for engagement. The abstraction of zones helps keep all weapons meaningful in a variety of different styles of engagement in ways which are realistic, but also reflect the needs of players to feel involved in the action rather than sidelined.
     
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  3. Monkeysloth

    Monkeysloth Well-Known Member

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    You can really tell the system was designed for movement and melee rules and that range was kind of tacked in but that's fine as ranged combat is quite workable once you understand what a zone really is for outside of movement and that's talents and aoe damage. While the rules as the same (close, medium, long), which work quite well for melee combat, Conan allows you to abstract zones differently for ranged weapons depending on the circumstances.

    There's not a lot to it rule wise but basically that the zones for ranged can be changed as much as the GM wants it to based off of where the ranged attacker is in relation to the combat itself. A common way to run this is if you're somewhere else and there's no direct conflict around you then your range is farther (this would be the same if you're in like a tower shooting into combat as well) and then where the combat starts is medium and the next zone over is long. The distance between where you are and the combat is and if your character can shoot into it is up the GM as, obviously, not all weapons have the same range. Another option is that ranged weapons have their own zones that are much larger then the movement\melee ones. When I run Infinity pistols would be using zones as written for melee but a combi would be able to shoot from farther away if no one was in the way engaged in combat which then you'd have to move to get a clean shot or take negatives to shoot though it (which would add the same difficulty as increase the range).

    The "advantage" it brings is just how the talent system works as well as weapon effects as many that have "slash" damage can only affect people in the same zone and similar things. Basically it makes a lot of that stuff really simple to deal with as you don't have to worry about "how far apart things are" for extra targets and such as anything in this zone is hit with damage or any x number of additional targets in the same zone are affected. I've run 2d20 games for over a year and I like how they work but they do need an official way to deal with long range combat though the two I listed above work quite well. If you house ruled away zones you'd have to change how that all worked, not hard but still the system was designed around it.
     
    #3 Monkeysloth, Mar 27, 2018
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  4. Monkeysloth

    Monkeysloth Well-Known Member

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    I should add why it works for movement and melee and that's just general simplicity as instead of saying I can move 5 squares unless I go over difficult terrain and now it's 2 squares normal movement, 1 square of difficult (that's 2 normal) and 1 more of regular it's:

    I can move anywhere in my zone for free
    I can move to the zone next to me as a minor
    I can move through 2 zones as a standard action.

    Difficult terrain is just smaller zones, so would be climbing up on a table (it's a zone) and getting down.

    You can also attack someone that's adjacent to you so if they're in a different zone right on the edge and you're on your zone edge you can attack too but cannot move into that zone. Sometimes being in a different zone gives an advantage or disadvantage to the attack roll. So, for example, if you're on the table attacking someone not on the table you'd get a bonus d20. If you were on the ground attacking someone on the table the difficulty would be increased by 1 (to d2) and if both of you were on the table the combat would be normal.

    I think from that alone one can see why it works for melee, especially the move anywhere in the zone for free, as well as the tactical combat that come from a well designed location but it also requires some effort put into it can be time consuming.
     
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  5. boquepasha

    boquepasha ALEPH is love, ALEPH is life, ALEPH is your friend
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    I understand your point that zones help with abstracting things and keep the game simple, but it creates that gap with long range weapons, and also with area weapons. Affecting a whole zone changes wildly the usefulness of a weapon depending on the zone size in an unrealistical way (a hand grenade cannot explode wider or shorter depending on where do you throw it) and also breaks inmersion when you throw a grenade at a crowd of enemies, but due to a bad roll only one gets hit, as it only increases how many objectives you blast away by expending momentum on that roll (which I know is a core mechanic, but I don't like how it is handled when using area weapons), it also doesn't matter if your friends are engaged in melee combat with those enemies as the grenade will magically not hurt them, only if you roll complications on the attack.

    Also, regarding movement, it kinda irks me that you can move freely over a 5x4 meter zone, hece just stepping out of that zone (even if you're less than 1 meter away from it) costs a minor action, unless you make all zone equal in size, which then brings the question of why using zones at all if you could only use squares or meters/feet as the measure for movement/shooting. Being that this is a mostly sci-fi setting (albeit with space knights and space ninjas), we should supose that gun fights would be the common thing here, but my feeling after reading the system rules a couple of times is that it is ill suited for this endeavour.

    I'd like my players to really engage with the Infinity setting (they are more roleplayers than wargamers), but they like combat to be as crystal clear as possible. We always use theatre of the mind, and in complex fighting scenes we just draw a quick sketch of a map in a piece of paper, and they just point where they want to be or to go on each round, knowing fully what their capabilities are. Is it possible to do so with this system, even if I decide to mod distances and remove zones for warfare situations (but not for psyops or infowar), or should I better use only the lore/items from the book and hack another system? It would be a shame to dich the system, as I really like things like momentum, heat, and how the rolls are being handled, but I know my players wouldn't last more than two sessions if combat is not really suited for the setting.
     
  6. Monkeysloth

    Monkeysloth Well-Known Member

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    The grenade thing sounds bad when written like that but they deal less damage the farther away from them you are (at least that's how it is in Conan, 'fraid I haven't read all of Infinity yet). and since smaller zones are usually things filled with stuff that could partially block with the explosion (though not super realistic) it's not that bad. Grenades, again in Conan, don't use the area weapon quality so you don't select targets based off of momentum and everyone gets hit in the affect zones.
     
  7. boquepasha

    boquepasha ALEPH is love, ALEPH is life, ALEPH is your friend
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    In the Infinity book, the area weapons (which have properties of 'close/medium/long') you only damage your intended target, and with each momentun spent you affect one additional target. Only by rolling complications you might damage friends at the same area.

    Now that I'm reading this again, you could even throw a grenade at your own feet, and as long as you don't roll any complications, you can just walk away unscathed. Obviously, in a game run by me if some one tries to pull that move, the next thing that player will have to worry is the color of the skin of the next Lhost he/she's going to be sleeved in. :laughing:

    EDIT: Let me just correct my statement. Grenades also have the Indiscriminate property, which makes them do what you said, affecting everyone in that zone. My bad. What I read about was the Explosive amounition, which does what I said earlier.
     
  8. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    I see you've self-corrected the error regarding explosives, which I hope helps to clarify why zones make things with those easier rather than harder. Personally I've had a LOT more trouble tracking exact positions for feet/meters of range/area in TotM combat.

    And I think you're going to need to be clearer about what your issue is with long range weapons, I'm just not seeing the issue? Zones are designed to be smaller in the up-close areas where combat is focused but expand with the area into larger spaces meaning Sniper Rifles etc end up feeling pretty good when you actually start using them.

    Don't forget reactions. Enemy reactions matter a LOT and it's going to be harder to get away from a responding opponent.

    Yeah, I don't see why zones are such a killer here.

    I have the same approach to combat you do, with similar kinds of players and they LOVE this setup. One of the best we've used.
     
  9. Monkeysloth

    Monkeysloth Well-Known Member

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    Yep, grenades are indiscriminate. Though it doesn't look like Infinity has dissipating damage for AOE attacks.

    Really when it comes down to it you're either going to like the abstract nature or not, flaws and all, as no system is perfect and while it's true that it's silly that you could throw a grenade 5'x5' zone and not affect anyone else and the same grenade would also cover a 50'x50' area the game is giving up a constant radius for something that moves combat along much faster as you can just see what's in a zone and know what gets hit instead of measuring either on the table or in your mind which can be pretty slow. Same with movement, it's not I move 7' and checking if that's close enough or deciding how far away the player is when asked instead it's just I move anywhere in this zone, or I move to the next zone next to enemy x. No math, counting or numbers to look up.

    2d20 games are all about 5 players shearing down 50 people in one encounter. Other games with more realistic combat that would take hours but with 2d20 you can have that done in 15 min once people are familiar with the rules. Of course you can make the encounter as complicated as you want but in a nutshell the system is designed to be fast and I can say it really is compared to a lot of other systems.

    If that's not what you're wanting in a game it's probably not for you as is. Thankfully the official forums and G+ pages are full of house rules and Modiphus is planning on launching a community hub that will make it easier to find stuff. It's also quite common on the G+ pages for devs of the system to hop in and give their own house rules for things when people ask. I'd join the infinity one and potentially the Conan one (which is super active) and ask and see what comes up -- can't hurt.
     
    #9 Monkeysloth, Mar 28, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
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  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    But even then you're not 'dropping the Grenade at your feet' you're:

    IC: Remaining behind the wall, I decide to deal with the hapless Guards. With a quick flick of his wrist <character> flicks a Grenade at the feet of 2 guards standing mere metres away'.

    OOC: So in my previous action I'd successfully snuck into Close range of the 2 guards, who still don't know I'm here. I lob a Grenade at the 2 guards. I'm using the wall as heavy cover so I think I'll have a cover soak of 4* to avoid taking damage from the Grenade due to Indiscriminate.

    or at least that's how I think it works.

    You could possibly even allow the use of Momentum to 'improve the quality of your success' to grant more effective cover (representing the character throwing the Grenade where it would least harm them). Effectively using the Penetration Momentum use but in reverse (ie +2 Soak/Momentum).
     
    #10 inane.imp, Mar 28, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  11. stevenart74

    stevenart74 Well-Known Member

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    @inane.imp. . .

    Why this discussion concentraed on Area Explosives and Grenades. . .??

    It is not as You will really, Really, REALLY wants to Play a Corregidoran Gecko Pilot (that entered a Mercenary Brigade to be able to use Modified Frames with Grenade Launchers installed on the Arms). . . . .???

    . . . . .

    Oh, wait. . . . .YOU ARE :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: !!!
     
  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Heavy Cover+ARM5 is more sufficient for Soaking the proverbial 'EXP Grenade dropped at your feet'.

    EM 2 Grenade OTOH... Well that's why LGLs are Medium ranged.

    FajeEdit: actually what happens if you roll an Effect on your Cover Soak?
     
  13. boquepasha

    boquepasha ALEPH is love, ALEPH is life, ALEPH is your friend
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    Wow, so many replies while I was away! :joy: I'll quote-reply what's been said:

    What I meant with sniper rifles is the following situation. I'll be using the metric system as I'm more familiar with it than using feet:

    Imagine these 3 zones as my previous example (measures have been added to illustrate what I'm trying to portray):

    [bar] --- 2 meters ---> [tables] --- 5 meters ---> [terrace]

    Taking the system as it is, a soldier stading behind the bar shooting his sniper rifle at someone at the terrace would be shooting at his intended range (two zones away), but this is unrealistical as there is less than 10 meters/30 feet. On the other hand, a pistol should be on its good firing range in real life, but due to the zone system, that same soldier shooting his sidearm would be outside its optimal firing range. I know that this system tries to be more abstract, but it breaks suspension of disbelief for the players.

    I was just meaning for regular, unopposed movement. If there are enemies arround I understand they try to retaliate for a rival moving arround, but I just wanted to portray that moving arround diferent sized areas makes it weird for the player as they move 'faster' while being in one zone, and 'slower' while on other (even if there are no tangible obstacles in any of those two).

    I currently am a member of that G+ group, but thanks for the info for those who doesn't know it. High five!:hand: In fact, It helped me get some quick reference tables (which sadly the current book does not have) and also some nice house rules, like what to do with effect dice for cover rolls.

    Maybe my gripe with the system is because I usually tend to state distances while describing places, which also helps my players to imagine better the scenario they are currently in. While GMing a combat scenario, do you explain to your players exactly how many zones have been set, or do you just 'do the math' on your own and just ask for the players where do they want to go and what action do they need to use? My players tend to rely on visual helps for combat scenes (just sketching a rough map of the area is usually enough), do you draw the combat area and then state which zone each segment belongs to, or just wing it?

    I guess I should try to run a quick one-shot with my players, and depending on their reaction with this system, try to enforce this zone system or switch it to regular measures.
     
  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Intutiviely, I'd break your Sniper example down as:

    [bar]-2 metres->[table]-5 metres->[door/window to terrace] as "Close, inside a bar cluttered with tables chairs etc, there's a bar over one side. The amount of clutter grants heavy cover within this zone, traversing around this zone is difficult terrain (D1)."

    [terrace]-3m->[street]-6m->[terrace oposite] as "Medium, the bar opens onto a terrace overlooking the street. There's a few scattered outdoor tables on the terrace and only a little bit of cover on the street. Over the other side of the street there's another terrace. Within this zone there's soft cover. The street is a D3 Obstacle to Jump across unless you are at ground level.

    [building opposite] as "Long, there's a building opposite with windows overlooking the bar. The curtains are drawn and you can't see inside."

    [building at the end of the street] as "Extreme, at the end of the street there's the entrance to the corporate headquarters where your target is expected to appear".

    So a sniper set up in the bar shooting at a target appearing from the corporate headquarters would be firing at Extreme Range, from cover. Probably a shot a well prepared sniper can make, but not something you can do simply.
     
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  15. boquepasha

    boquepasha ALEPH is love, ALEPH is life, ALEPH is your friend
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    I see, you did what I told earlier, to 'mash up' several zones into broader zones. I guess then you could say something like 'this zone has light cover, but as a free action you can jump behind the bar to gain heavy cover' without needing to define aditional areas, isnt it? It was my guess that it could be done like that, but I wasn't sure if havin 'conditional effects' inside the same zone could be done or not.
     
  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I think - if I was GMing - 'jump behind the bar to gain cover' would be an Exploit (Acrobatics D0) Free Action to gain momentum that could be spent on a future Defence roll. Rather than having distinct levels of cover in the same zone.

    N.B. I haven't actually played the game yet. :)
     
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  17. boquepasha

    boquepasha ALEPH is love, ALEPH is life, ALEPH is your friend
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    Hm... I might try either that or my way, as both sound both nice and simple to explain to my players. I guess I just got carried away with an explanation I saw in one of the comments of the G+ comunity regarding zones and how do they stablish.

    https://killstring.blogspot.com.es/2018/01/youre-in-danger-zone-2d20-combat.html

    Here in that example you see the exact same situation I was explaining, and you can see why I had those issues I exposed before, but I guess it is simply that the example was not well thought enough.

    Maybe Modiphius should give more examples of how to set areas for scenes, as I find the book lacking in examples (I had to read the Quantronic Heat adventure just to realize how to establish zones for Infowar scenes).
     
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  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Intuitively the way I think about warfare zones is:
    Can I hit you over the head? Reach
    Can I shoot you with a Pistol instinctively? Close
    Can I shoot you with an Assault Rifle instinctively? Medium
    I need a long rifle to get to you or aimed Asssault Rifle shot? Long
    Longer than that? Extreme

    Anything within a single room bar is (to me) Close from the POV of using weapons. The Lasiq should have been able to pull out his Viral Rifle+LSG and rack a round into the LSG for an Intimidation test in the ideal range to use the Shotgun, or at best/worst it's a really large bar and the Bar Area is close and the Couch Area is adjacent, with the central tables being within Close of both the Bar and the Couch. The Lasiq pulling out a Sniper rifle to shoot across a small cafe feels off and is therefore wrong; a Lasiq pulling out their Viral Rifle+LSG and either opting to use the rifle or the shotgun feels right and is therefore correct. The argument about whether the whole cafe is in ideal range for a shotgun is a question of degree, but it's in the right ballpark.

    The sporting match analogy is more my speed, which works quite well if you think about it as Rugby game.

    A tackle is Reach, a normal regulation pass is to anywhere in the 'Close' Zone (ideal range to Throw a Footbal), a cut-out pass is to the 'Medium' zone, a cross field Kick is 'Long' and a 40m+ kick is 'Extreme'.

    But change that to a running gun battle across the sporting field and I'd characterize the 22m as Close, the rest of the pitch as Medium, the stands beyond the Pitch as Long.

    Which is another point: context is important, what feels right for a Rugby Game, doesn't feel right for a Gun battle. Equally in the cafe those zones make sense if you're modelling intimate conversations but not, to me, for a gunfight.
     
  19. boquepasha

    boquepasha ALEPH is love, ALEPH is life, ALEPH is your friend
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    Being like that, I can wrap my head better to this zone system, and I hope my players will too. Maybe I'll run a one-shot game during this easter holidays. I'll report back once we've played. Thanks everyone for your thoughts! :smile:
     
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  20. stevenart74

    stevenart74 Well-Known Member

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    @inane.imp

    You make excellent, well-thought examples of how solving "Rule Issues" in an abstract system like 2d20 Modiphius' Infinity is. . .

    It will be a pleasure and a privilege to Gamemaster for You (either Solo missions or in a larger P.B.P. Group) when We will finalize our ideas. . .
     
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