It is no doubt intentional. Even their ship is described as being designed "like a fractal Matryoshka doll".
I think in the venture to create something you'll never be able to please anyone. Especially when it comes down to some thing as completely subjective as what offends somebody. Not everyone will be offended by something. I believe it's a conscious choice to be offended and because of that a content creator shouldn' let that be at the forefront of decision making. Infinity is a huge successful game even with things like kempeitei and securitate. I remember playing battlefield 1942 with a bunch of friends and one of our friends was Japanese and flew his zeros into a carrier joking about being a kamikaze and pearl harbor. We all laughed and had a great time and got in a few jabs back talking about our friends fat man and little boy. He laughed too and a great time was had. Maybe we are insensitive monsters? I can't imagine any of us saying those things to an actual world war 2 veteran so we obviously have some sense. We We are able to not get offended and were playing a hame about some thing that was non fictional.
I dunno, the veteran might have told you interesting stories. Soldiers tend to be reasonably grounded about what is real and what isn't. Honestly, I think offense is taken, rather than given. I was 'bullied' as a kid, but since I didn't let it get to me, it didn't hurt me the way they wanted it to, so they gave up. In many ways refusing to give things power over you is the best way to undo it - taking offense and letting it hurt you gives power to someone else. If I play JSA, my troops, regardless of their unit profile, will be MY troops, and I'll say they're a different sort if I want to, not all IJN soldiers were guilty of war crimes - There is a revisionist bent in history to wash away the noble, honorable, or good people who were in the German/Japanese military in WW2, and that is equally harmful to trying to ignore the wicked or evil, in my eyes, because it fuels resentment and prejudice in it's own way, especially given no nation is a monolith, and within evil regimes there have been good people, trying to make changes for the better, and within good regimes, there have been wicked men using their power in all the worst ways. I think people need to give others the right to express things they dislike, but then, I'm American, so we tend to have strong opinions about freedom of speech as a primary right in society.
Also, given the number of units people are complaining about, it almost seems the military units of most nations have sometimes got blood on their hands - it's almost like war is a nasty, vicious, cruel business that nobody should celebrate in real life, and I hope we are all adult enough to understand is just a game when we bring our pewter to the tabletop. I mean, people could (rightly) complain about Spetsnaz, or Janissaries, or Knights Templar, or scary furries from Bakunin (they scare me), or any of a number of other units based on history, because history is a vicious bloody mess that, the deeper you study it, the more you learn people are neither simple nor easy to summarize. I support all of these units getting to exist as fantasy cyberpunk space commandos, because I can understand that just because there are black marks on a nation's military history, it doesn't mean every part of it must be evil, that everyone who ever wore those uniforms were evil, or that we cannot take the terms of the language and use them for new purposes. (Stormtroopers are, well, troops trained to storm enemy fortifications. It's the old german 'STICK WORDS TOGETHER' approach to linguistics, and it honors the history to use those names, without necessarily endorsing or condemning it.) I could have a unit in a future setting, in which german origin soldiers formed a 'panzergrenadier' unit, and it wouldn't have to be WW2 themed. Those are just the terms in the language - we as foreigners attach a lot of baggage, but there are German Panzers today, adorned with the balkencruz, and I just have to understand how to differentiate them based on more than surface terminology. And all of this also comes back to maybe Infinity is a setting about the evil humanity is capable of, as well as the good. Perhaps it is up to each player to decide how their armies fit into that world. I don't know. It is, after all, a wargame with pewter figurines and D20, and perhaps moralizing it too heavily is a rather bourgeois exercise in morality, when the world has problems enough, and mayhap we would be better served by enjoying the game as a game, and expunging, in as much as we are able, our more substantive and real worries, in order that we can take some joy from our hobby. Just my two pence.
Before this thread, I didn't know that the Securitate carried as much bad baggage as Kempeitai. I thought that was the Russian/Eastern European word for Security Police, no more baggage than SWAT. So using the name brings that baggage into Infinity. It's obvious from the Separatist Kempeitai fluff that the historical baggage is intentional, the Kempeitai has gone full Gestapo/Stasi, just like their historical counterparts. So if the Securitate name is kept, I would hope that the unit's history is about as grim as the Historical version. Also, I don't want much heroification from the fluff. These are bad people, not role models.
Guys I need to say, this is a very civil and nice conversation. I enjoyed reading the last 3 pages and learned a lot. Thank you for that. I agree, that some Names seem insensitive, but at the same time carrying over a theme is worthwhile. I am very interested in the Securitate Fluff and hope like @Section9 that it will have a grim tone about them.
I never thought of the Infinity background as overly grim, until now. I used to see those factions just as normal nations. Not necessarily super evil, but also not good. Now I realise how dark this all is. PanO are corrupt, Yu Jing are oppressive, Ariadna are speciecist, Tunguska are mafia... not sure about the others. I think Carlos once said the Infinity background is bright, most people lead happy lives, technology has brought advantages, etc. Now it looks like he did not read very carefully. I like how all of the worlds' crime families are involved in Tunguska, not just Russian ones. And how the banks are there to finance it all and to launder the money being made from crime. Just like the real world.
I would argue that the game and more specifically the miniatures we play are not part of the happy majority and that Carlos may not be wrong in that statement. The general populace likely lives happy, peaceful and fulfilling lives. It may very well be the very best time to be a human in Infinity's history. The world(sphere?) can have it's fair share of grim dealings in the shadows and regular, violent confrontations between military, spec-ops and criminal elements despite this.
I'm sure the world is plenty bright. The games we play usually depict clandestine black ops which the majority of people in that universe never see or experience so go on with their normal lives.
Totally subscribe what said by @Xeurian and @atomicfryingpan . . . Many of the Citizens of Pan-Oceania that are not Ateks are productive "Tertiary Sararimen" and perfectly inserted into some Lobby / Corporate frame that will take care of all of its needs (unless somehow You cross the Hexaedron, but it is a ultra-rare thing !!). . . A typical Yujing Comrade-Subject will just go daily working at a Industrial Factory where almost all of the more tiresome processes are automatized and pollution is almost zero, and will go back to its nice "Hive Block Condominium" where a Good Wife would have cooked some choice Cloned Fish & Vat-Grown Rice kind of "Wok Stir-Fry" (peppered with JUST an hint of "Luxury Spices") and will hear the exploits of its two children at the Party Formative School (provided Your House is not bombed by the Japanese Rebels, to kill an Imperial Bureaucrat that 3 years before squandered a Bushi Platoon on a Snafu !!). . . If You are a baseline Haqqislamite then You live a tough, but honourable Life around an Artificial Oasis on Bourak, tending the Hydroponic Gardens that will transform Bourak from an Arid Desert Planet to a lush "Paradise of Allah"; You don't care for the fact that just Your grand-children will live in that Paradise, You have the "Seven Pillars of Haqqislam" to provide for You AND it always beat being killed in the Sciite / Sunnite / Sufi wars on "Old Earth"; also Your family clan has combined for You a good arranged marriage with a wise (if not so pretty and young) wife that help You raise Your many children, some of them have good possibilities to attain College Medicals at Al'Medinaat (just does not think overmuch that You suspect Your very gentle neighbour, the lecherous but generous @Yasbir, could be really an Hashashin in Undercover to conduct an investigation on "Ol' Uncle Faisal" for some unlucky Silk Mismanagement !!). . . If You are a Citizen of Concilium then You REALLY live NOW on a Paradise, probably You have some O12 cushy Office Work related to some Bureau, Your Geist is awesomely advanced and also have obtained for You an incredibly "Hot Date", a Posthuman Lady that often use Your "Human Normalcy" to forget that Her last Mk2 Body was slaughtered by Morat Troopers on Paradiso, in a very devastating manners. . . . .You did not think that Gynoids could cry in their Pseudo-Sleep, but You will be always there to cuddle Her when She startedly awake (just don't mind Her Bodyguard, that Myrmydon Veteran always look funny at You, especially when in the Smart Block had arrived that weirdly "Smelling" Tohaa Ambassador Lady !!). . . If You are an Human Edge Colonist or a Corregidoran "Meteorhead" then Your civilian life is a little more difficult, but You have a big extended Family that teach You how to survive and thrive in a Zero-G Environment and how to "Cash In" every useful Skill, Talent & Knowledge that You developed to eke a meaningful, honourable existance; maybe You salvage old Starship Hulls, or You mine Comet Ice or just Patrol the Deep Space with "Hyperadvanced Radar Sensorial Arrays" , but in any case even if Explosive Decompression is JUST some cm. of Plasteel away, when You finish Your turn, then a good Vat-Grown Ale and some well-flavoured Protein Gruel will be a quick repast before unwinding with the "Crew Boys & Gals" for some good "Scrap Metal Music" (and should You face some "Occupational Hazard" that will make fold in itself some "Dirtside Groundpounder" Civilian any Spacer worth its salt will become VERY dangerous when "Creatively" applying a Wrench-Hydrospanner or a Hull Blowtorch !!). . . For the 75% of the Population of the Human Sphere Life is beautiful, calm, provided and meaningful (even unoccupied, unskilled Non-Ateks of the Hyperpowers could have lives comparable to our R.W. "Luxury Middle Classes" !!); it is just if You were on Paradiso Frontlines, on Svarhalheima Contested Borders or some comparable places (such as "Exploding Acontecimiento") that sometimes things go bad and the exploits of Your preferred Maya Warcor become an unwanted reality. . . Really, even if You live / work / commute near a sensible Corporate Research Center HOW MANY % are the possibilitie that a Rival Hyperpower will send Your way a "Wetwork Black Ops Team" of a Military T.A.G. + 2 Ancillary Drones + 5-10 "Cheerleader" Light Infantry Troops. . . . .??? . . . . . (Fourth Wall Answer. . . . .ANY Time that Two Infinity Players bring Minis to a Urban Warfare Tabletop Game !!!!!). . . . . . . . Of course that bland, perfect, steady, reliable, perfectly prevedible Life (the One described in the first vignettes of the "Outrage Manga" when Emily the Hexa see the quite dumb civilians of a coomuter Maglev enjoying their privileged existence) is somehow "Bought" with the Blood, Pain, "Re-Sleeving" into a New Body (or even "Final Death" when the Cube is irretrievable !!) of the "Shadowrunners", of "Those Who Run on the Razor's Edge Blade" keeping the "Long Night" away from the hapless civilians. . . . . . . . And if You are a dour, stone-faced Ariadnan Colonist, a tough-as-nails Chimera Pit Fighter / Moderator from Bakunin, a "Criminal-Turned-Crimefighter" of Tunguskan Security Corps or even part of the 95% of the WHOLE Racial Profile of the Morats / Zerats, then. . . . . . . . THIS FUCKING BORING CIVILIAN LIFE WOULD BE AS BEING WALKING DEAD ! A TRUE WARRIOR IS ALIVE ONLY ON THE BATTLEFIELD !!! . . . . . But, seriously, many kudos to anyone that will field on the Tabletop Battlefield the deployement of Mr. John Smith, Office Leader Extraordinary (so technically Lieutenant), with its "Mobile Coffee Machine" Drone and its faithful "Cheerleader Squad" of 5-10 Milf Secretariers and Nerdy Tech-Support "Computer Wiz". . . Maybe You'll resist for 2-3 Rounds when a Gang of Jaguars / Kums / Yuan-Yuan arrive to assault the Office Compound where You are hunkered down; if You strive to escape notice the Bolts / Bao Troops / Kapu Qualki Security / Mobile Brigada E.M.T. / Metropolitan Myrmydon S.W.A.T. of Your immediate precint will arrive soon enough. . . . .!!!
I just passed by this thread again in a long time, and noticed that the topic has shifted to how dark or bright infinity is. Allow me to bring up the following: Infinity is a setting where humanity has transcended its limitations and has ascended the stars through technological advancement, yet still has religions, different ethnicities and different ideas. It's a setting where medicine has advanced to the point diseases that are considered incurable today are little more than simple ailments, and even things such as genectic defects can be cured, and unlike most settings where this happened, instead of being a cautionary tale about how doing that leads to a unique, streamlined and boring humanity, we have a vastly diverse, multicultural human-sphere that both embraces the new and remembers the old. That IS very bright. Hell, it's the brightest setting I've seen since star trek. The problem is this is still a setting about humans, and humanity is not 100% dark. Sure, we have mafias, we have black ops, and the game is chock full of them. But I'd rather see it as an inspiration for a bright future than a grim reminder that some shit never change.
Lol no offense but that sounds like a boring game. Ideally in a bright future there is no alien invasions or need for a black ops missions. Everyone would wake up perfectly healthy and all their wants and needs taken care of. Make a wip check for continued world peace.
The average citizens of the Human Sphere might have nice lives. However, I measure the light grade of a game more in the forces you represent on the table top. Thus I just noticed how dark most factions are in this regard. So you are either fighting for some party dictatorship, corrupt capitalists, fascists, mafia or genocidal settlers. At least all of this is rather realistic and not some fantasy nonsense like 40k. It is an interesting observation that despite the awfulness of the governments, most people living in the Human Sphere don't suffer to much under those governments. War is mostly limited to some black ops in pursuit of connecting antennas. So that is rather bright.
Remember that line from Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men? Our games of Infinity are guarding the walls. Most of the residents of the Sphere don't even realize that there are walls, let alone people standing guard on them. In the real world, half a percent of the population of the US (~1.5million) is in the military on the front lines. I'd imagine that it's an even lower percentage in Infinity, at least for PanO, Yu Jing, and Haqqislam. Nomads it's probably higher (maybe 1.5%), and Ariadna it's probably over 3% of the population.
[QUOTE="... I'd imagine that it's an even lower percentage in Infinity, at least for PanO, Yu Jing, and Haqqislam. Nomads it's probably higher (maybe 1.5%), and Ariadna it's probably over 3% of the population.[/QUOTE] Haqqislam has the largest standing military by far. Says so a few times in the lore.
Though that gets into the question of largest by % of population, or largest by number of bodies. Because a nation that has, say, 300 million people in it and has 1.5million in the military only has about half a percent, while a nation of 15million that has 1.5million in the military has 10%.
If there's one thing that humanity's existence has shown, time and time again it's that the smell may change, but the shit stays the same. History may not repeat, but it sure as hell rhymes with itself a lot. Star Trek's utopian "all of humanity united under one banner" (well, except for section 31 ... and the various separatist groups ... and the separatist groups amongst their alien member states ... ) is unlikely to happen unless you find that tribalism part of the genome and excise it.
Well he was referring to percentage, and from reading the lore, Haqqislam at least has the largest in that regard. The question only remains if they have the largest by number of bodies - which I thought was stated as well.
The RPG actually talks a decent amount about the "bright" future of humanity. Basically it's not a post-scarcity economy but one where food, shelter and other basic needs are not a worry any more to about 99% of the population of the major worlds as there's universal basic income in the big 5 and most of the minor nations. And the economy is all about desire and not needs anymore. Also that a lot of it is subjective as well off to Ariadna is poor to Pan-O. The RPG book also clarifies the Haq army size. It "has more personnel under arms" then any other force and it's mostly made up of ghulams. However, they're less well equipped then most of the other factions
