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JSA/Yu jing Army Help

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Old Spider, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. Old Spider

    Old Spider Member

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    I'm trying to create my first force using Yu Jing..
    Either melee using JSA Army list I really like the Shikami and O Yori Rules.
    Lu Duan and Rui Shi are pretty cool too with Shinobu
    Really I'm just getting back into wargaming after years off and I'm trying to figure out what I really want to run.

    A Close Quarters Melee Force sounds neat but really I do not know if it's that effective.
    Even Carlos when talking about it during a Beast of War Video seems to not Promote melee... any help would be great

    [​IMG] Four Winds
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4
    [​IMG] SHIKAMI (Fireteam: Duo) Contender, Nimbus Grenades / Assault Pistol, DA CCW, AP CCW, Knife. (0.5 | 46)
    [​IMG] SHIKAMI Contender, Nimbus Grenades / Assault Pistol, DA CCW, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 45)
    [​IMG] SHINOBU Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0.5 | 47)
    [​IMG] RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6
    [​IMG] O-YOROI Lieutenant HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (3 | 83)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] O-YOROI PILOT Contender / Pistol, CCW. ()
    [​IMG] YURIKO ODA Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 23)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)

    5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Or
    a very Rem Heavy Force.. I like the idea and combination possibilities with this I'm very unfamiliar with game play but not the rules...
    I wonder if it would be effective as well

    [​IMG] Mobile Section
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    [​IMG] RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)
    [​IMG] RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)
    [​IMG] LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    [​IMG] HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    [​IMG] HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    [​IMG] KǍNRÈN Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 29)
    [​IMG] SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
    [​IMG] YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] CELESTIAL GUARD Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] CELESTIAL GUARD (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]5
    [​IMG] CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    [​IMG] LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    #1 Old Spider, Nov 28, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  2. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Think of CC as a Last Resource, or maybe as a Very Powerful Deterrent.

    There are some units who can exploit it on their own terms: Kitsune and Oniwaban. They start in the enemy table, outside the DZ and kill what they reach. Bonus: the Oni brings a Boarding Shotgun to the meele, if you can find some massed mooks it's golden.

    Then you have some FAST units who can reach the enemy lines (or an advanced enemy) in very few orders: Yojimbo, Mushashi, O-Yoroi and Shikami/Domaru. These can be tricky to use, because each has his own delivery method and is otherwise a "normal" model.
    Yojimbo has a bike and can defend himself with Smoke Grenades. I normally use hin in CC as a VERY last resource, because his smoke help the other models to get where i need them.
    Mushashi has his Flash Pulse. With is MOV 6, he normally is within 24" of the enemy, so he hit on a 18. But you need to approach a single enemy at the time. Otherwise Dodge on 14 is not so bad too. DO NOT FORGET to always Dodge toward the enemy with him, try to Engage rampaging models and taste the fear in their eyes.
    O-Yoroi need something more to advance, he is a very solid DZ defense model, but you cannot rely on him to assault. A simple HMG on a TAG cannot be enough, sometimes. But his cute Koala are peachy. An enemy hacker have to dispose of them before approaching the TAG.
    Shikami and Domaru rely on their HI and two wounds to engage the enemy. Each one packs a different set of defense/offense (ODD and SJ vs Berserker and linkability), so you need to be a lot sneaky with both. I think that a Shikami Duo is not the way to make them shine, but it is a personal thought.

    Last mention for Ninjas and Saito Togan... Saito is the third Smoke Source of the army (Kitsune rarely use them, Yojimbo is more valid and fast). Do not be tempted to CC with them, unless the target is a MSV2 model or a Ramboing enemy (that you should engage). They will always have better chance to kill something with their Combi Rifles.

    Remember. You CANNOT RELY on CC. Do you know the saying? You do not bring a knife to a gunfight. But you should NEVER forget about it.
     
    Golem2God, Forté and Dude like this.
  3. Dude

    Dude Master in training

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    I agree with everything you said except this. Ninja (and especially Saito) are very deadly in CC. Unless there are specific risks to CC (like additional AROs or something), it's often better than shooting.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Distance, not competence, is the great killer for Ninjas trying to CC. Distance and Achilles. Don't CC Achilles.
     
  5. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The enemy moves. You have to declare ARO unless it's a marker. You declare Engage, and now it's a PHIS Vs CC/CD roll since your enemy will declare CC or shoot.

    If the enemy is worthy of this risk, we are talking TAGs or elite HI, which means they will fire at you for 3-5 dice at 13-18 or CC you twice with 2-3 wounds per hit...
     
  6. Dude

    Dude Master in training

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    Sure, that's a terrible situation for the ninja. When I recommend CC, I mean as the active model (in controlled circumstances). If the ninja is actively hunted by an elite model, then any ARO (dodge, engage, shoot) is just a desperate hope to not die.
     
  7. Dude

    Dude Master in training

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    It's kinda fun with a Domaru :)
     
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  8. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    But when you start to sum up when to NOT go in CC (No Achille, no Bersekers, no NBWs, no SSL1 or SSL2 so no 4+Fireteam, no DTW-armed models, no models away more than a single move, never approach more than a model... I could do this all the day!) you'll find that a Ninja in cover and SupFire is FAR MORE a problem than roaming the table trying to stick himself on the enemies weapons.
     
  9. Dude

    Dude Master in training

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    Roaming the table in search of CC is definitely a bad idea :)

    Sorry, I thought we were talking about how to attack an enemy in the span of 1 order. I'll take a CC strike over a Combi burst. Even if you fail to dispatch the target, you've locked it in CC.
     
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  10. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    If you want to play the smoke + MSV game, you really want to be playing Vanilla for Shaolin Monks or ISS for AVA Total on the Celestial Guard with a smoke grenade launcher, but more importantly because you get MSV2 on a BS14 unit with two wounds, 4 armor, and an HMG, the Hsien Warriors. JSA doesn't do this very well -- our smoke is very expensive (our cheapest smoke model is Yojimbo at 21 points -- the cost balances out how good we are at CC), and our MSV2 unit isn't a great shooter. Using Shinobu as a smoke grenade launcher to shoot at people is kind of a waste, IMO. It could be situationally effective depending on what firelines look like, but I would rather use Shinobu as an alpha-striker.

    You can put all of these in one Combat group. There's no reason for any list with less than ten models to be in two groups afaik. In this case, I would swap Yuriko for a Kempeitai with Chain of Command and use the leftover 2 points to make 2 Keisotsus into FOs. It gives them a Flash Pulse, which is much more likely to keep them alive at mid-range distances in ARO. One of JSA's strong points is how cheap our CoC is -- most other factions pay 30-40 points for it. It pays off too, since we have the most aggressive Lieutenants (Shinobu, Oniwaban, O-Yoroi, Oyama, Kisaragi, etc.)
     
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  11. Old Spider

    Old Spider Member

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    Oh I like this I'm hearing mixed emotions on melee:fearscream:
    I definitely want to do a variation of one of those two forces

    I'd like to see what dudes take is on a JSA melee Force...?

    Total Smoke ISS
    @ meikyoushisui Rem Heavy, Smoke games... what would you run?
    Actually @ Anyone ...

    And for everybody giving me some input I really appreciate it:sunglasses:
     
  12. Dude

    Dude Master in training

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    Sorry, there is no such thing. You can field troops that have skills/equipment to help them reach and excel in CC, but you can't plan an effective force around CC. Try experimenting with Ninjas, Oniwabans, and maybe Yojimbo. Trial and error will soon give you a good sense of when to go for CC and when to stick back.

    Being the best faction at CC in a shooting game is like having the best handwriting in a game of Scrabble.
     
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  13. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Well, I can tell you that group one will probably look like this:

    [​IMG] Imperial Service
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]8 [​IMG]4
    [​IMG] HSIEN HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 61)
    [​IMG] ZHÀNYING (Fireteam: Haris, Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 27)
    [​IMG] ZHÀNYING (Sensor) Boarding Shotgun, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 23)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)

    3 SWC | 144 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Fireteam:Haris for the Hsien and Fireteam:Core of the Kuang Shi to suppress their impetuousness.

    In Vanilla, it would be the same but without the Zhanyings but with 4 Shaolin Monks in my second combat group. Shaolin Monks are nuts for this, basically. You probably will land 6-7 grenades in the first turn by using both of their orders to throw grenades, and then you Hsien can just go nuts.
     
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  14. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Beware, i LOVE CC but not as the first or only tool for a fight.
    My JSA lists (tipically named "The Triad of Death") start this way:
    [​IMG] Japanese Sectorial Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]6 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] MIYAMOTO MUSHASHI Chain Rifle, Flash Pulse / Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    [​IMG] SHINOBU Lieutenant Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (1 | 47)
    [​IMG] RAIDEN (Minelayer, X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21)
    [​IMG] CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    [​IMG] NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    [​IMG] KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 22)

    3.5 SWC | 197 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  15. Old Spider

    Old Spider Member

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    What's Everyone's take Shikami

    [​IMG] Japanese Sectorial Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]3
    [​IMG] SHIKAMI Contender, Nimbus Grenades / Assault Pistol, DA CCW, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 45)
    [​IMG] SHIKAMI Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 47)
    [​IMG] SHIKAMI (Fireteam: Duo) Contender, Nimbus Grenades / Assault Pistol, DA CCW, AP CCW, Knife. (0.5 | 46)

    0.5 SWC | 138 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  16. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Mixed feelings. Here's some points I've made before:

    A huge problem with the Shikami is that he doesn't Infiltrate or have Forward Deployment. A duo helps alleviate this problem by giving you more order efficiency, but I also feel the 2-3 orders it takes to get him into a position my Oniwaban can just start in is kind of costly. I understand the units kind of fill different niches, but a Ninja killer hacker is 16-18 points cheaper, has the ability to be in marker state, and starts halfway up the board. Shikami trades all of that for a wound and a couple of armor points.

    To add to it, think about what you're giving up for him: A Shikami has a statline identical to the Domaru (and they even both have Fireteam:Duo, MA Lv.3 and Kinematica Lv.2). Will Specialist Operative, Super-Jump, Climbing Plus, Nimbus Grenades and ODD altogether be worth more than 13 points for you compared to a Combi Rifle Domaru?

    I don't feel like it does on a lot of tables -- I think Shikami are super cool if there are places you can take advantage of super jump/climbing plus, but on a table with only one tier of terrain, it's much less likely to happen. That's a local meta-specific thing though. If there's nothing for you to platform on, Super-Jump and Climbing feel useless. On the other hand, if you're playing on a map with 3 levels of terrain and it's fairly dense, Shikami feel fantastic for doing objectives. And against factions with limited CC and MSV2 (Haaq), they still feel pretty good. And one really cool thing in ITS Season 9 is that they do make excellent data trackers.

    I feel like they would feel much better with +1 BS, Forward Deployment, Hyperdynamics, other specialist profiles, or some SWC weapon loadouts -- an HMG would feel fantastic, though I could settle for a Boarding Shotgun or dual Assault Pistols. Any one of those things would make me far more likely to bring them. But altogether right now, I think there are just too many conditions necessary for them to their job.
     
    #16 meikyoushisui, Dec 3, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
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  17. Old Spider

    Old Spider Member

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    Okay so I have a additional question to this: Do Nimbus grenades and ODD stack mods stack
     
  18. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Yes. Ideally what you do with a Shikami is come up to a corner at the closest possible angle you can't be seen by a link team, Nimbus around the corner where they can't see you but you can still get them with the template, and then pick them off one by one with your Assault Pistol or Combi Rifle. Nimbus counteracts both of the bonuses they get from being in a linkteam, and you're shooting at base BS with Burst 3 on your Pistol or B2 on your Combi while they're shooting at -12 before range bands (cover, nimbus and ODD) with B1.
     
  19. Dude

    Dude Master in training

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    If you're feeling bold, you can attack 4 at once, putting 1 shot from the assault pistol into each one. Their burst is reduced from 2 to 1, and yours is "reduced" from 1 to 1. If you're strapped for orders it's efficient (though risky).
     
  20. Old Spider

    Old Spider Member

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    Great....
    So A Shikami can get a possible -9...
    Wait if in partial cover -12?
    Vs typically bs 12-14
    With Super jump and Kinematika n Duo to save orders...
    I need to start actually playing.
     
    xagroth likes this.
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