Personally, I believe the only good thing about this update is that "the new units bring more variety and list-building options to VAleph and OSS units." Everything else needs serious reconsideration. 1. Lack of Creativity in New Skills & Equipment New Dodge MOD: Dodge (ARM+3) New Weapon: AP Red Fury These two additions don’t meaningfully change army building logic or tactical choices. Especially the AP Red Fury — it’s literally just a Red Fury with AP ammo added. Calling it a “new weapon” feels lazy and uninspired. Dodge (ARM+3) is equally boring. I can already guess what the next mods will be: Dodge (BTS+3) and Dodge (SR+3). 2. Direction of Changes for OSS and Corregidor This ties into the first point. I was really hoping the Aleph update would bring fresh, exciting new skills, equipment, or even a brand-new Hacking Device to prove that “Hey, we really are the most technologically advanced faction in the Human Sphere.” Instead, the new profiles and units are just existing skills stacked on top of each other. As for Corregidor, splitting them into sectors was poorly executed, and the UI/UX is especially bad. When I’m editing an army list and select DeepSpace units, the app should automatically hide all SURFACE units instead of showing everything at once. Alternatively, players should be able to choose a specific “Space” before even entering the list editor. 3. Balance Adjustments I don’t understand why CB insists on giving PanO and White Company a BS Attack +1B Pitcher equipped with X Visor. I also don’t know why CB ignores their own ITS statistics. O-12 only received one minor change, while they even gave NW new profiles. The Pitcher's effective range remains disappointing and frustrating. 4. Faction Identity Becoming Increasingly Blurred Take hacking warfare as an example. In N4, each faction had its own distinct identity: PanO had FD+8" Peripherals with Repeaters. Yu Jing had Infiltration + Minelayer + Deployable Repeater + Firewall (-6). Haqqislam and Aleph had Pitchers. O-12 had FD+8" Peripherals with Repeaters and Pitchers (though they couldn’t join Fireteams). Now: PanO has a +1B Pitcher. Yu Jing has a +1SD Pitcher. Military Orders has the highest BS Pitcher, plus Infiltration + Minelayer + Deployable Repeater. CB is handing out Pitchers like candy, supposedly to emphasize technology, but they’re clearly overdoing it. The Discoball Problem I’ve been complaining about Discoball since N5 launched, and it continues to make the game boring. The way it blocks lines of sight while being extremely difficult to interact with is the biggest issue. Low interaction should come with low efficiency, but the current Discoball clearly violates this principle. It also severely damages faction identity. In N4, only PanO, Aleph, O-12, and Combined Army had access to Eclipse. If PanO was weak due to a lack of smoke, then just buff PanO specifically — why give it to everyone? On top of that, it makes no sense that O-12 still doesn’t have access to non-lethal PARA Mines, while other factions are freely receiving Mine Dispensers and Minelayers. The widespread distribution of CoC has further diluted faction identity and effectively invalidated decapitation (decap) tactics. 5. Excessive Power Creep Power levels are inflating far too much. Strong factions now possess a huge number of skills and equipment options, while factions without such buffs become noticeably weaker. This diminishes the importance of player skill and makes raw unit power the dominant factor. It’s obvious that whenever a faction receives a buff, they’re given a pile of new skills, many of which are essentially free upgrades. The game is now heading in a direction where every update is just a contest of “who can become stronger.” Balance achieved only through buffs is clearly unhealthy. It also significantly raises the barrier to entry for new players, as a complete army now requires memorizing even more special rules, resulting in a much steeper learning curve. 6. Some Skills Are Overpowered or Useless Super Jump should not grant +2" movement to all units by default. This makes certain units overly efficient, yet it’s very difficult to adjust later. It would be much better to specify Super Jump (+2") only for units that actually receive the movement bonus. This would make balancing far easier. Additionally, Berserk sometimes becomes completely useless when paired with Super Jump +2". For example, Hippolyta has MOV 6-2, which essentially turns Berserk into a dead skill.
Some are already saying OSS is super powerful, but I don’t think so. It happens with all new factions or updates. I think the updates to OSS are also in line with the story. They are THE REM army. But some of the power game with a cost. Even if they have ECM hacking -3 they are still one of the most hackable armies in the game. They do have some very good things. The new flyer is great. But I think all flyers should be about 10pts more. About the argument of the factions losing some identity, yes, I think some of it, is the case, but then some of that “identity” made it they just sucked to play. I just think they’ve done some of it wrong. Like Nomads having good Lts. And other command skills. It was of few weaknesses they had. Yu Jing did not need to gain a pitcher on the Feiquan, and the Feiquan still sucks in comparison to other flyers. I think they felt they had to give it something but to me it still sucks. Once it puts down some pitchers there’s not much more it can do. I really can’t say about Nomads yet TBH. I don’t know them as well. But I will say I think the whole Surface and Space thing is a big fuck up. I don’t think they could make it more complicated. It makes me think they were going to do a new Nomads sectoral but didn’t have the guts to come out with it. I think the biggest winner is PanO with the updated Max, gaining Pilot X, Dart, and more. Even Shock Army gained by updated Dart and Nagas. YJ gaining Kao is only good in WB. In vYJ and IA he competes with Kokram. O-12/TB gaining Kyra is meh, Starmada needed something more than the others. Biggest looser is JSA. A single point change. The Nokizaru is screaming out to be useful. I guess some of the NA2 are in the same boat. I think all of the JSA flavors are the most difficult to play.
I don't feel like every update needs new re-imaginings of skills and equipment. I think that's what led to the bloat of N3. And Dodge (ARM+3) as a representation of shield use is kinda neat. I prefer the faction design being less rigidly focused on "this faction is the shooting/low-tech/close combat/etc. faction". People complained that factions were losing their sense of self in N4, but I saw rigid faction identity as being overly constraining and source of frustration for players. There was a point where PanO players were getting annoyed at all their gunfighter releases because every release was a gunfighter, while everyone else was annoyed that PanO was getting all the gunfighters. And to be clear, I'm not contesting what you're saying, just stating a preference; faction identity is a contentious topic. But your very first point was disappointment that there weren't enough new skills and equipment for this release. I'll point out that Shinden and Kestrel are sitting at 48% win rates based on the stats you posted in another thread. Kestrel was the faction that everyone was handwringing over, too, because it seemed like they got all the new toys.
First of all, thanks for your reply. To be honest, I never played during N3, so I don't have firsthand experience with it. However, from what I've seen of the rulebooks, one of the main issues seemed to be that individual skills contained too many rules, and there were too many different types of Hacking Devices. Since then, hacking programs have been significantly streamlined and simplified. At the same time, when Next Wave was released, the Combined Army still received entirely new technology support and mechanics. Yet I don't see many people arguing that those additions made the game bloated. In my opinion, players rarely complain about interesting new skills or equipment being added. What creates bloat is repetitive design, multiple rules that achieve nearly the same thing, or niche exceptions that require extra memorization for very little gameplay value. And considering that Aleph is supposed to represent humanity's technological pinnacle, I don't think it's unreasonable for players to have some expectations regarding unique equipment and technological identity. Faction identity is definitely a controversial topic. However, there are some fundamental aspects of a faction that, if altered too much, begin to undermine the setting and lore itself. You might have misunderstood what I meant. When I complained about Aleph, I was referring to "skills or equipment that have never appeared in the rules before," like the Deployable Cover introduced at the launch of N5. Power creep, on the other hand, is simply the stacking of existing skills—these are two completely different concepts. If my previous wording caused any confusion, I hope this clears up my point. It’s true that Kestrel got most of the tools initially, which is why they performed so well right when N5 dropped. However, after the update last October, their performance became pretty average. This happened because every PanO Sectorial except Kestrel received Pitchers in that patch. This actually proves my point: "This diminishes the importance of player skill and makes raw unit power the dominant factor." In N5, where Pitchers are handed out to everyone, the most efficient and cost-effective blocker naturally becomes the optimal solution for the meta. The fact that VPanO and NCA win rates skyrocketed during this period perfectly illustrates this. It’s not that Kestrel got worse; it’s that everyone else suddenly got tools that were even better than Kestrel's. Having a complete toolbox doesn’t guarantee you'll dominate the competitive scene; those tools also need to be efficient, which is the main reason why Shinden's performance has been mediocre. Especially after successive N5 updates, most factions have a fully fleshed-out toolkit by now.
I'd say they are being too creative when we really need some simplicity. Shinden is as 42% and KCF at 47% but KCF also has more players. So i was thinking, again, about how Yu Jing has shit specialists below 25pts. Then I looked up OSS! To me, the best specialists for the points are Pilot X, Sophotech, Artalis, Proxies 1 and 2. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 APSARA (Hacker) Submachine Gun, Zapper ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 17) APSARA (Hacker, RemDriver [CC=15, BS=13, WIP=14]) Submachine Gun, Zapper ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 20) APSARA (Hacker, TAGCom [Dodge (PH+3), GizmoKit (PH+1)]) Submachine Gun, Zapper ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18) APSARA (Lieutenant, Hacker, RemDriver [CC=15, BS=13, WIP=14]) Submachine Gun, Zapper ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 20) ARTALIS (Engineer) K1 Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / AP Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23) ARTALIS (Engineer) MULTI Rifle, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / AP Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23) ARTALIS (Doctor) K1 Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( | MediKit) / AP Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23) DANAVAS (Hacker, Hacking Device Plus [UPGRADE: Oblivion (+1B)]) Combi Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 22) Pilot-X Team (Hacker) E/Mitter, Flash Pulse / MULTI Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 21) Pilot-X Team (Hacker) E/Mitter, Flash Pulse / MULTI Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 23) GROUP 2 10 3 PROXY Mk.1 (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 14) PROXY Mk.1 (Engineer, Deactivator) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) PROXY Mk.1 (Doctor) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) PROXY Mk.2 (Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 22) PROXY Mk.5 (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun(+1B), Flash Pulse, E/M Grenades / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13) SHUKRA (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 21) ARJUNA FTO Boarding Shotgun(+1SD), Flash Pulse(PS=5), D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 21) ARJUNA FTO AP Submachine Gun, E/Mitter, D-Charges ( | TinBot: Firewall [-3]) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23) ARJUNA (Forward Deployment [+8"]) Boarding Shotgun(+1SD), Flash Pulse(PS=5), D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25) DEVA (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 25) DEVA (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 20) DEVA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 21) SATRAH (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device [UPGRADE: Firewall (-3)]) Submachine Gun, Pulzar, Cybermine ( ) / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 20) SOPHOTECT Submachine Gun, Pulzar, Flash Pulse, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25) GROUP 3 10 1 THORAKITES (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, E/Mitter, Pulzar, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) THORAKITES (Paramedic) Submachine Gun, E/Mitter, Pulzar ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 14) DALETH Rebot Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 15) DALETH Rebot (Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 18) DIKPALA (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 15) GARUDA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 20) KINNARA Scoutbots (Infiltration, Minelayer) Vulkan Shotgun, Heavy Flamethrower, D-Charges, E/M Mine / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0.5 | 25) KINNARA Scoutbots (Parachutist) Vulkan Shotgun, Heavy Flamethrower, D-Charges, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 24) KINNARA Scoutbots (Parachutist) Submachine Gun, E/M Carbine, D-Charges, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 24) PROBOT (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 14) GROUP 4 2 RIKSHA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 20) NAGA (Forward Observer) AP Submachine Gun, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse, D-Charges ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25) 5 SWC | 713 Points Open in Infinity Army
Lets keep the numbers: 1) I did not see the lack of creativity bc I not expected any. Both are not new but extensions of excisting ones in general I dislike too much new stuff. For example NW brought us Techno-XX which allows a Gizmokit to get rid of states from VH (or some new stuff in Aleph). Do we need this? No. Make it so, that an VH sinks down to the ground if imm or uncon - voila, you can engineer it or CC it. 2) OSS direction is a good way. Partialy. More REM (now the REM Faction?) and good hacking protection. ECM stacks with FW. A few CC able additional. A good flyer on paper. And Optimates as a category is extended (a bit too much if you ask me but…yeah). Overall nice upgrades. MK4, Dakinis, Asura, Ajura - Yadu are bit too good with Albedo -6 but the give up doding for it. Hacking overall got better and especialy the network is easier to build. Splitting CJC was not a good idea. For what? Sell more minis? Why not make sectorial #4 Nomads Surface Devison and put a flavour from all three ships + the new stuff. The split looks like an hasted idea and the app did not support it yet. Meh. Overall upgrades in CJC are nice. Loss of Tskylons - even if I had not used them much - hurts a bit. In general I liked them, but CB overshadowed them with the Vostok. sry had to stop here - writing with a tablet in english with autocorrect from another language is kinda annyoing ;-)
okay continue on PC: 3) Not much to say here. Tone down Pitcher use in general. I don´t mean less pitchers but the "weapon" itself. For example, like mentioned in another thread, max 24" range. Also Disco could use some range restrictions. My actual meta has no CA and no Ariadna. Haqs, Nomads, PanO, YJ, Aleph some NA2 and O12 from time to time. Oh I forgot JSA which is strong in my Meta, especially Oban. Varuna and NCA and Kestrel have some strong builds. 4) Thats true, but what to do? More stuff bc CB has to release more (new) models. On thing that bothers me a bit is that the actual selling Faction/Sectorial/etc. looks like the best (except ISS ;.). That was very true with Torchlight mostly bc they were already N5 in the end of N4. Aleph / OSS look very strong at the moment - I still have to test (am still testing ISS which IS not bad, I had a good portion more wins than losses). The old standards blur. Pan O can hack, Haq can shoot (Janissar BS14 with BS-3, Zhanyen with MMS), OSS can CC (newer tacbots) etc. A bit curious that CJC is the strongest hacking sectorial in Nomads since Jazz... even when Interventors are the best hackes stats wise. MO has one of the strongest killer hackers .. but pays for it. Pan O is still the TAG faction. YJ still trades in all directions and have a lot of HI, with good CC and good hacking defence. Ariadna lacks information. CA is still a powerhouse. Aleph seems the S-2-REM faction and feels elite in WB with the unique Post Humans O-12 was and is the best of two worlds (Pan O and Nomad) copy pasted with a bit of its own flavour. Nomads can still hack but their lt. issues are gone (still not much CoC). 5) this update features two sectorials and tries to put some sprinkels everywhere. SD+1 seems to be hottest stuff. Its not easy to keep all on one level. With the addition of racerbots there seems to some new cheerbots - but I am not so concerned right now, I think they can easily taken out. 6) Yes Jump and Superjump feel very strong at the moment. A bit finetuning is required. Hippo seems like a corner case. Berserl is cosmetic here.
If we're purely talking about power level, I personally believe OSS is absolutely top-tier — easily a solid T1 faction. Whether they have real competition or not is another question. It might be a bit early to say they dominate the meta, but even conservatively, they’re performing at a high-level T2. As for the flyers, they are indeed very strong, but increasing all of them by 10 points might be a bit too much. Their power levels vary. I completely agree with this part. PanO is definitely the biggest winner of this update besides the main faction (OSS) itself. Pilot X is the cheapest and most practical new unit added — it can easily fit into almost any PanO list. For YJ, this update is the most interesting in terms of fun factor. Johnny brings a plasma carbine and monofilament mine that regular YJ doesn’t have, and his price point isn’t too high, so he’s quite easy to include in lists. O-12/TB got another luxury option. Kyra is a solid combat-capable trooper who can also do objectives. It’s helpful, but the impact is fairly limited since O-12 already has plenty of luxury choices. VHaqq’s new Dr. Claire is a Discoballer doctor — a useful multi-role tool. JSA didn’t get much improvement this time, but their current performance isn’t bad at all. After all, JSA was one of the biggest beneficiaries of the N5 big update. The massive buffs to MA3-5, the changes to NBW, and the addition of the Discoball have all significantly increased JSA’s power level — especially Oban. In ITS statistics (at Significance Level = 5%), no JSA sectorial is in the weak zone. In the Chinese community, Oban is often considered S-tier. In N4, SP could use Eclipse to blind everyone without engaging in any firefights and seize the midfield. Now everyone can achieve similar tactics with the Discoball. In close combat, JSA is the strongest faction in the entire game. Unlike SP, Oban has sufficiently strong Ninjas that can infiltrate directly into the midfield. If they’re not in Camo, they can drop a Discoball to blind the enemy and then go straight in for the kill on high-value targets. JSA’s playstyle is very different from factions that rely heavily on shooting. It may not be the easiest to pick up, but it still remains competitive. It can feel a bit one-dimensional at times, but it definitely still has teeth.
@Angus just pointing out that you've attached my name to the content of another user in the quotes of your last post.
