It's cultural, I got latin blood. I was trying to make ends meet with the "new figure" thing. CA with 92 screams overhaul, it's like they rebuilt the army including next wave. Also it goes against the concept of addressing wave 1 factions before human sphere if you check it against YuJing and Ariadna (not sure about the crew of the Aurora, but YuJing is definitely 1st wave). O12 sticks out like a sore thumb. Still this information doesn't quite account for the profiles which are an integral part, together with the price tag (as I showed). The pairings show discrepancies in the HI section too: vPanO has 10 vAleph has 3 They all cover different roles. The most similar pair is Asura vs Hectari Shooters In vAleph Asura looses 1 profile (Hacker/Lt). I didn't even remember that MULTI redfury was a thing... (AP/DA/Shock with marksmanship). Asura has CC20... which will NEVER use because the opposition can be MALx and there isn't much of delivery mechanism (smoke/eclypse/disco), doesn't have bonus in CC either. NWI is interesting, but it's not exactly something that saves your life, while negating cover is a big thing (in cover BS+3 and PS -3). Asura can sustain hacking a bit better with WIP15 (15% more) and has better chances in f2f for table/turn order... costs more that 10pts more which is steep considering that all in all they are pretty much the same (apart from MSVL3 which is substantial, but you need to shoot camo tokens to see it) while BS-3 is an always bonus.
I can see the argument that Asura could use some more profiles to increase flexibility and I totally agree with that. But I just don't see the comparison between them and Hetkari, aside that they are both HI. BS-3 and MSV3 serve such different roles that I don't see them as comparable at all.
Especially since the Aquila Guard is RIGHT THERE. Or the Charontid. And the statement, "NWI is interesting, but it's not exactly something that saves your life" is certainly a take. The Asura is one of the scariest models in the game and accurately centerpiece. The hacker is an Apex hacker. The only change I would recommend is bumping the Multi rifle to a ps 6 like they have been doing for expensive HI recently or changing it to a X-visor +B.
"Only" is good. NWI, even without IMM shock helps a lot. NCO is about 2 pts and also helpful for a SK. But overall I have to agree the Dasyu are a bit too expensive in comparsion. Scarecrows are fresh and new and optimzed in pts. Dasyus should at least get BTS 3 for free. This is not a good comparsion because the Hectari's role is superior shooting only. Asura is also a good shooter but you have to look at Aquila Guard. Similar HQ battelfield roles with best msv in game, both are older profiles with mid and long range options and specialist and LT options. Asura is 10 pts more for live saving NWI and +1 ARM, +2 WIP -1 BS.
I see Asura as a full-blown terror. MSV 3, BS 14, ARM 5 and effective VITA 3 (i.e. Vita 2 and NWI) - that's bordering TAG's level of resilience. Yes, it brings a TAG-like price tag too. But still. And there are Hacker loadouts too, to match Haqq elites in terms of pure WIP, sporting HD+ with an upgraded Trinity - and BTS 6? Someone wants this monster to be even stronger...?
I get it and understand that very reasonable and accurate stance. But as some who likes the Bokhtar, unless its Plasma, PS=7 on a 40+ point unit feels bad.
The Charontid? Sure, only the Charontid (ECM-3) is well priced and doesn't quite compare with Asura and I will also say Anathematic too: the CA counterparts are all AP minimum with WIP16. The highest WIP in the game. On f2f the Charontid wins on probability (ca. -20% for Asura) like a walk in the park. Here is not a problem of role (which is theoretical anyway, it's not like Asura is only used in missions taking place at Aleph HQ...) or the hacker profile which is used a lot, but the tasty Lt+1 (albeit without Strategos) does come in handy (we are talking about vAleph, this isn't OSS where Asura has Lt+Hacker...) And ok, let's take Aquila: This guy got ECM and costs less. 10pts less and even got discoballer: much better CC-deliverable unit than Asura that has CC20. And to those saying that NWI changes things I ask: are you shooting with a 1 damage weapon to a unit YOU KNOW its got NWI? Be Serious! The barest minimum is Continuous Damage. To summerise: A CC20 that will never see melee A hacker that has no hacker protection A spitfire that is not even AP and this is an elite A MULTI rifle profile that today is quite funny to see on a 50+pts piece It's an elite in an elite faction and... no Combat instinct or Warhorse on non Lt profiles, no Strategos on Lt profile... Hector that is the "closest" (geographically, same faction) is actually OK priced. I'd have him MSV2 and AP spitfire at least, but I don't openly complain... my god it even has a tinbot firewall!!! And better than ARM5 is ARM2+nanoscreen (won't go below ARM4 against AP...) which reminds me: Hatamoto, HQ trooper, with up to 16pts less and a plethora of skills...
Continuing the comparison I took a look at Vet. Troops (vAleph vs. vPanO): 4 vs. 7 and PanO comes with HI in the section while Aleph doesn't. Aleph comes with Myrmidons which are an important cornerstone of the faction, but the number of options in the PanO arsenal is staggering. In this section it's difficult to make a face to face that looks fair. Zulu Cobra vs. Artalis is support/hacker vs. Engineers... the only one that feels at least vaguely similar is Teutonic knights vs. Myrmidons (both CC units) Slightly different mechanics in the Courage/Religious troops. I could argue that dodge +3 is better than dodge +2", but only in the f2f roll. A Myrmidon can dodge into CC with the +2". Weapon options are in favor of the TK. By turn 2 if the myrmidon is not frenzy you should wonder why you took it in the first place. Movement is a big deal here: myrmidons can auto-deliver in CC with smoke, but 4" vs. 6" is a big deal. We don't know why a guy with a heavy armour should have a PH14 vs. a nimble guy bred to CC at PH13. Effectively they both have limited cover (at least when a Myrm kills). Myrmidons used to be NWI and I reckon they should get it again. I wonder why a TK cost so little considering ARM/BTS section... Another pairing that could work is Bolts vs. Yadu Bolts have way more options. Both warhorses, with Bolts that have marksmanship and Yadu NWI, Number 2 and Courage. Feels like in this pairing the main issue is the options available which I reckon should be higher for Yadu (an MSV, KHD and Paramedic at least). I should point out, for clarity's purposes, that my analysis are based on Aleph being THE intelligence network every government would like to have (AI that monitors communication in the Human Sphere) and it's supposed to be an elite faction so the higher price tag should always be connected with better profiles (overall or weapon options). Yadu are a good representation of it, they just need profiles.
You are comparing HI vs MI. Teutons are a WB like cheap HI because they are fully impetious. In good range, Myrmidons shoot them on 15 while the TK are on 7 given that both are in cover. The very good dodge came form servopowered muscels. Myrmidons after impetious triggers provide still a -3 to hit thanks to mime-6. Myrmidons should get BTS 3 at least representing that they are artificial humans or Lhosts. In CC they are better than the Teutons. Yadus are HI that is not HI - their Hacker are immum to Isolation and WIP 14 is very good, especial compared to Bolts WIP 12. Bolts are better shooters, Yadus are more resilent. NWI is a big thing on a arm/bts 3/3 unit. The better move allows for order efficent shooting. Here I see its good, that units will differ from sectorial to sectorial. Bolts are made for shooting but Yadu are elite overall. Okay I would not say no to a MSV 1 on the HRL or a Paramedic profil, but we have FO and Hacker with WIP 14 already.
It's not good to compare one to one. We know that they look at the whole army. Not individuals. Some troops are artificially made better/weaker or expensive/cheap depending on how they work with other troops in the force. Going one for one is not the right way to think about it. No matter how fair or unfair some seem. Yu Jing seems to have a tax on it for being Yu Jing or because they, for some reason have +1 CC on basic troops that never use it. CC is the least used stat in the game for some reason but they also have good smoke throwers with some MSV2. As mentioned, Yadu are, essentially, Un-Hackable heavies that can do almost anything. Bolts shoot and that's about it. I don't know many that take them for the hacking lol. Sometimes the paramedic because their PH of their HI is better than their WIP. They don't even use it on themselves.
I didn't say that Yadu is a bad trooper, I didn't even complain for price. In the match up the comparison is an example of fair pairing, although I would add about 3 profiles to Yadu (a chain of command would be nice). I don't agree on the comparisons between different armies. Based on the fact that armies have very similar structures, one role can be found across the factions in the game with variations that account for different focuses. Aleph being Elite is expected to have pricier, but better troopers. The example of Dasyu is pretty symptomatic, the Asura is another one (more or less in both cases: increase profiles, reduce prices or give stuff to compensate for price tag). the comparison of Veteran troopers highlights an important aspect: having options of different prices assures that the position is filled with highly varied lists. In other words if I decide to commit more points to a specific unit, I can take a cheaper veteran and be sure to have the position filled for various aspects, maybe with a little less oomph. Aleph has a limited number of veterans which means that I cannot decide to make a list with a certain variations, because the main veteran trooper (Yadu) has that price tag and that forces me to pick other surrounding pieces. Which translates in low variability of lists. Similar is the situation of the Myrmidons: I don't complain for the match-up with the Teuton (let's just not try to come up with hypothetical background reasons for certain mechanics... either background matters or it doesn't and that is a position CB should start taking at heart because the "adaptable unit-measures" are ridiculous) Myrms, like I said, are the cornerstone and to a good measure. What Myrms don't have, an Officer can compensate. BTS3 I reckon is due too and I don't think that it'd be enough to award a price increase.
Note: Troop Categories are not really well defined and more fluff driven. It would be better to compare Types instead. It is also probably like @Space Ranger inferred, better to compare general capabilities versus specific units.
Strictly comparing the NUMBER of available profiles is a trap. As others have mentioned one should look at how those profiles work within the context of the army or sectorial. I play Yu Jing and, man, sometimes it feels like I'm playing on hard mode. The first time I faced Myrmidons I was like they can do WHAT?! Mim-6 with frenzy AND martial 3 AND stealth AND throw down smoke on 14s???!!!!
Meanwhile for a long time as a PanO player you would mostly envy people whose units were competent in anything else than simply shooting ;) Looking at the big picture, Aleph units' hat is having good stats across the board, while also benefitting from increased staying power thanks to the abundance of NWI and decent ARM/BTS. And while there are always some balance issues, in my opinion in Aleph they are mostly internal, not external. Dasyus' biggest issue isn't that other factions may have a better optimized infiltrator. It's the fact that Proxy Mk.2 is right there. Same goes for Parvati vs. Sophotect, though it seems CB fixed it to a degree. Achilles and Agamemnon were stepping on each other's toes for a while, but obviously that has been fixed as well, after a fashion. There are two places I'd start introducing any reworks in Aleph. One is the internal balance I've mentioned. No unit should be outclassed by another in the same army, and fixing this would also result in less predictable list building. Second place is fireteam composition, to make them more flexible.
Only a few units in Aleph really need a rework (Apsaras, Artalis, and possibly Daysus). They also probably would like "the new hotness" of cheap throw away camo forward deployment (gudans, moonrakers, kyojin killers/Yamabushis) to allow some shell game with their currently super expensive (but elite) skirmishers. But overall Aleph is definitely in a good place now.
That is true, but I did not see roles highly specific depending on factions. Sure nomads got many hackers even in "locations" one wouldn't expect, but for Aleph and all its sectorials I see a consistent structure that is mirrored, with various details, by other factions (and honestly in terms of modern warfare it makes perfect sense). So they actually are comparable and my comaring Myrmidons to Teutons is the demonstration of it: Myrms are the embodiment of Aleph in a CC specialised faction and it's visible maybe with a few more profiles they'd be even better. On the other hand Thorakiti are a shame: they used to be ok back in N3, they have been progressively stripped of anything, even religious troops (maybe courage can be added again? just because by backgorund they are not religious). Also to answer Law Dawg: Myrmidons come at a cost, they are more expensive than your vanilla-flavored cheerleaders, they are more like Zhanying for the price range and still Myrms are BTS0 vs. 6 (it's true that if the opponent misses, they don't need BTS ). Or similar to Silver Snakes to which the options available make them more versatile. Invoking background is risky, especially with CB using background a bit randomly. Consider what Archon said: Aleph should have an overall BTS+3 because there is no human in the faction, androids are not affected by viruses or poison (by background)... and yet Myrms have BTS0. One thing I'll say though, the old ODD, now mim-6, have been greatly improved because fire doesn't affect it like it did in the past. Myrmidons are specialised CC troopers and when a faction like SP was thought there was the consideration that it's an elite CC force so they have to have a delivery mechanism that works... they used to be NWI (and if you ask me it should come back, although I understand if it doesn't and I don't complain). Brokenwolf: don't confuse Stell Phalanx with Aleph (even less OSS). Steel Phalanx still works, but since we were denied 3 or 4 pieces they should have 3 or 4 new pieces back for the sake of variety. Also Asura need a retouch as I demonstrated in the previous page, Naga is in the same spot as Dasyus (being effectively the same thing, but cheaper... differentiation wouldn't be bad). Aleph has 3 flavor of jump troops, Garuda, Ekdromoi and K2s (the HI in an elite faction with ARM2...) with a bit limited number of profiles and Garuda has ARM0 vs. ARM2 for the other parachutists. Is Aleph a mess? no, of course not, but needs across the spectrum update and for future reference, considering background, Aleph should start being pro-active in the changes, rather than re-active because when you have top level intel you are ahead of the curve... not behind...
Since we're comparing troopers, what do people think about Arjuna? It's MI specialist that starts in DZ but has Tac Aware and 6-2 move. In Hindu myth Arjuna is a very good shooter but that didn't get translated into the game. For specialists I'd take Posthumans, and I'm not sure what place Arjuna fits in. Edit: the model is really sweet though, and I like the pack with the Kieranbots since I can use the bots as other S2 remotes.
Arjunas are an ok Jack-of-all-trades. Kiranbot versions are decent corner guards that can pivot to being a fast specialist. Actually they're so mobile that you can push them forward and use the bot as a speed bump, especially against HI/TAGs which really don't want to be on a receiving end of an E/M template. They aren't superb shots, but BS12 with Mimetism and in good weapon range can be a decent secondary or tetriary attack piece. FTO versions can increase fireteam mobility and act as its primary or secondary specialist - I would probably use the cheapest option for that, but I can see use for all three, depending on the game plan. In other notes, I was thinking about the ways Aleph could get a makeover, though I'm focusing more on general faction design than on unit buffs. I'll try to post it later today.
Looking forward to. On Arjuna I agree with Stiopa. Maybe not the absolute top tier of Aleph, but they have been an addition that I really welcomed because they give the possibility to change a list. That being said I wouldn't mind if that Spitfire became AP or Multi (again: elite faction should have elite weapons). But otherwise even the cybermines are a nice addition that should find their way also in the hands of Aleph's minelayer extraordinaire: Nagas. Aleph needs Impersonations/decoy/holomasks in all departments (and I'm not talking about Mercs, Mercs are there to try and balance where the balancement is not built in the faction, Sforza is good obviously). In terms of nice addition even Strah are nice... let's make them elite troops in an elite faction though: too little profiles, it'd be nice with more weapon option to tailor that MSV2. I don't spit on the firewall -3 for the KHD, but... just that? Can we have an HDP? Can we have a Pitcher?
I've been wanting to try them but every time I make a list they just can't seem to make their way in. I’m glad they made an FTO version without the bot but I still have a hard time adding them. If they were an Elite or Veteran I’d be more likely to take them for some missions.
