Source:https://experience.corvusbelli.com/en/infinity/its/statistics The Top 10 in win rate The bottom 10 in win rate The problem is that a large amount of “unknown” is still mixed in. The accuracy is insufficient for data collection, and the timestamps of the data also do not appear to have been gathered after the N5.2 changes. The official team should clarify the time period during which the data was collected.
While ITS 17 has been open for only roughly 4 months, those results are interesting. Ariadna is doing great and I am surprised that Shindenbutai performance and really really surprised by v-O12. I wonder what issues they are running into?
I already brought up the problems with V O-12 in the O-12 subforum. To put it simply: we didn’t get as many point drops as other factions, we didn’t get as many upgrades as other factions, and we even ate several small nerfs instead. Many factions gained new Pitchers, Discoballers, Strategos L1, or Chain of Command options, so O-12’s former advantage in tool diversity has become weaker. What I really don’t understand is why so many people are so optimistic about V O-12 in N5. Its tournament performance isn’t great. Especially Cyber Ghost. At the start of N5, some people even said it was still “solid like in N4.” How can anyone say that when it didn’t get a point drop, didn’t receive new skills or equipment, can’t join fireteams, and every other faction received more Pitchers and upgraded firewall/hacker options? Very few people talk about O-12’s long-range AP gun shortage (outside of the TAG). Nerfing the Zeta was a real hit, because it magnifies that weakness. Meanwhile, many other factions’ TAGs even gained Continuous Damage. This is especially obvious in Hassassins, since it patched one of their major weaknesses. If you only evaluate things by comparing N5 to N4, instead of comparing O-12 to other factions, it’s very easy to end up with these kinds of misjudgments. Of course, you could also say that the V O-12 players who do win are all hidden in the “unknown” category, but personally I don’t believe that, because a win rate of only 23.5% is just far too low.
I am also interested in how having this data publicly available from Corvus Belli directly might impact the meta? Will this drive people to try new armies or to prove people wrong? This can be an exciting time.
In fact, ALL other than Nomads are limited in the variety of pitchers and repeaters, but for some reason Angus seems fixated that O12's "hat" is Repeater Network and good Hackers... Here I was thinking that it was glue guns, with the amount of riotstoppers (a weapon made FOR the release of O12), adhesive launchers and other PARA weapons...
I'm not a math guy at all so maybe that's why most of it makes no sense to me. I never would have thought of Ikari or JSA being that high and O12 that low. If a faction only has two games in and won 1, it would be at 50%. That's not a good indication of how good it is. O12 does have it's problems but it's been great for me. My Feuerbach Gamma Lt. with Jackboots team has been tearing up! With my cheap CoC I don't worry about LOL. Yeah the ghost sucks right now but I just pivot to the Psicop who can duo and has more going for it than just hacking and pitchers. I'm also looking forward to using the Firebat soon.
You’ve once again completely misinterpreted what I said. Could you stop spreading misinformation? Are you my spokesperson? Or is there something you don’t understand that caused your misunderstanding? I have never said that “O-12’s hat is Repeater Network and good Hackers.” Whether before or now, my stance has always been consistent: other factions have received more buffs and tools, especially in the hacking department. Let me put it this way: Suppose in N4, PanO’s hacking ability was 30 points, while O-12 had 60 points. In N5, PanO’s ability may increase from 30 to 60 or even 70, while O-12 is still at 60. So tell me — compared to PanO, hasn't O-12’s hacking ability become relatively weaker in N5?
I find funny how you use the "comparative strenght between factions" now, since I tried to convey it back in N3 when Haris fireteams were exported from Qapu to all sectorials, and again when specific sectorials got a second Haris AVA in N4 (Morat, for example) to point at how Steel Phalanx was being indirectly nerfed. People got it in Helldivers 2 when Arrowhead nerfed the Coyote by buffing almost all enemies (that is, any that would not die by 2 shots of said rifle) to require double the impacts to be on fire. Now allow me to dispel a misconception you may be having about O12: Torchlight, while released in N4, is an N5 release the same way vanilla O12 was released in N3 as a N4 faction. And allow me to dispel yet another misconception: not all factions have, need, or must be good at certain tasks/aspects of the game. O12 does not need to stay at the same Hacking power level, because as you just pointed out, it's not their defining role. O12 is a mix of Pano's shooting with some of Nomad's cheap but fragile specialists (and some cheap but hard troops), and Aleph's "Mario" style, meaning troops capable of doing several roles underperform for their cost (usually with low PH, WP and BS all around 13), while others seem to good to be left in the bench but require backup (Kappa hacker), etc... It is normal to get a nerf in one area while getting a buff in another. And Torchlight was too overtuned at the end of N4, making it look like it was overnerfed in N5 (which incidentally seems to be Corvus' intent to force a faction rotation somehow). You wanna know which faction has been consistently pummeled? Look at Aleph. The only clear direction was in Steel Phalanx (hero sectorial, now nerfed), and the so long desired Vedic sectorial ended being OSS, which was "what's not in SP with a few new units we cooked up", several of them overcosted. Oh, and there hasn't been a single Dasyus model since N4...
Since vAleph only got two matches reported it doesn't appear on the tables, but take a look at the two sectorial of Aleph who do indeed appear on the table: OSS has a 42,4 % WR with 33 matches reported SSA has a 55,1% WR with 49 matches reported From a game balance perspective, usually anything that falls down within 55% to 45 % WR with a relatively popularity is considered balanced. With the perfect ideal of course being the 50% WR. As you can see the 'nerfed' SSA is... quite balanced? But of course, people will always complain coming down from extremely OP to not OP falling on the 'balanced and quite good' OSS instead I agree that is falling down on reaching the objective.
Maybe, just maybe, because the have worst hacking network now (and before - funfact: SP has two and OSS only one troop with pitchers)? Troops that represent an AI that have never learnd how to build a network on the battelfield. And maybe, just maybe we will see some pitchermagic or other ideas when the Aleph/Haq and prob. NW book arrives.
I don’t want to sound hostile, but I’ll say this again: don’t speak on my behalf. I have never brought up Torchlight on its own, so why do you keep attributing statements and arguments to me that I never made? I have always known that Torchlight was designed specifically for N5. As for the idea of “comparative strength between factions”, I brought that up from the very beginning when I said that other factions have received more buffs and tools. Just because I didn’t give concrete examples at the time, does that really make the point impossible to understand? Also, what I’ve consistently been talking about is the nerfs, not that O-12 should have a hacking network of equal strength. And the faction that was hit the hardest by nerfs isn’t Torchlight, nor does Torchlight have the lowest win rate. There was no mention of Torchlight anywhere above, so I honestly don’t understand why you keep focusing on it. Hacking networks such as FastPandas, Minelayers, and Infiltration Repeaters are all valid options. However, personally, I’d like to see “new technology” introduced to expand ALEPH’s hacking network. I also hope ALEPH will remember to protect its own network security — for a higher AI to forget about having a firewall is really inexcusable.
The data set is absolutely miniscule. All it takes is one strong, dedicated player at that sample rate to skew the numbers for a faction like Ikari hard. Once you hit a certain skill level with the game, you can expect to walk into pretty much any tournament setting and walk out at least 2/3 or 3/5 reliably, nearly no matter the faction. At that level and with that small a sample size, one good player with such an unrepresented faction just needs to do that at a handful of events. Ikari still isn't good. As for vJSA, they are actually just very good. Kind of one-note from a listbuilding perspective, or I'd play them more, but they are very strong in a lot of important ways.
With the caveat that I have yet to play my JSA, I have found when I make lists, I’d never take them for missions that use the classified deck. They have very few Veterans and Elite. Few troops that can do more one or two cards. Only one specialist character. A few Specialist Operatives that mean squat for cards. Almost anything else, I would take them. I think the fact that not all factions can do all missions is important. Many of the of the top factions in my mind are the ones that can do just about anything.
Karakuri, my dude. EVERY vJSA list basically revolves around a duo of E/matter Karakuri and a Hatamoto lt as its starting point. That's most of your objective work with your first 3 models. Then you toss in a tanko or two. Best disco lobber in the game, easy. You can mostly ignore your opponent and just grab objectives if you want.
I presume Oban would have a similar starting point with the Karakuri E/mitter linked somehow. But with nothing as good as the Hatamoto Lt.
I don't understand. Might be derailing here, but KK are just HI FO, great they duo but the are not vets or elite. Hatamoto is HI and that's it. He's an HQ troop. There's no cards for that. Maybe for the single Lt. Card? Specialist Operative does nothing for cards. Back on topic. Unfortunately we need every single faction to be played at least 50 times. Then we we need to know how the did AT exactly 50. But we know that's not going to happen.
Personally, I’m still a bit hesitant about the Gamma and Jackboots FT. Most competitive lists these days aim for 14 or 15 orders, so investing nearly 100 PTS for just 3 orders feels like a big commitment. By the time you fit in the necessary cheerleaders, there’s not much room left for units that can actually go out and do missions. I’ve also found that their efficiency drops off a bit against opponents with Min(-6). Since Jackboots are somewhat fragile on their own and 4-4 MOV without Super Jump or Climbing Plus is a bit slow, it can be hard to get them where they need to be. When you consider the heavy point investment, the firepower doesn’t quite seem to match what a Karhu Duo in SWF can provide. Regarding the Psicop, he’s definitely a strong hacker, but the MULTI Marksman Rifle profile actually went up in points due to the X Visor and Combat Instinct. It’s hard to say if that’s a great deal when so many other units are getting point drops or better gear for less. I did give the Firebat a try after the update—it’s certainly an improvement, but I’m still not sure about its practicality. For only 2 points more, Hippolyta just feels like a more tempting option to me. The high win rates for Ikari and JSA, with fewer than 50 games played, can probably be dismissed as statistical outliers due to the small sample size. Instead, I think we should look at Oban, since both Ikari and JSA share a significant portion of their unit roster with it. Oban has a 56.1% win rate over 66 games; while that's still a bit low, we can tentatively say Oban is a balanced, or even strong, faction. Oban has a very distinct identity. It excels in mid-field brawling, and its CC (Close Combat) is absolutely terrifying. Here are the key ways Oban has been buffed in N5: 1. Addition of Yuan Yuan In N4, Oban had zero Combat Jump units. While Yuan Yuans don't do missions, they provide crucial Smoke support. 2. Introduction of the Discoball In N4, MSV2 was a "hard wall" that forced you into Cautious Movement or unfavorable shooting trades just to advance. In N5, this issue is essentially gone. 3. Improved Martial Arts (MA) and Reworked Natural Born Warrior (NBW) Oban is arguably the faction where MA is most prevalent in the entire game. These aren't the only buffs, but they are the most significant changes in my eyes—specifically the Discoball. MSV2 can no longer stop Oban units from closing the gap and entering their ideal engagement range. The Tanko is a shared unit across Oban, JSA, and Ikari. For Oban, the cost is incredibly low—just 38 PTS for a +1 SD Discoball profile. Or you can upgrade a Domaru to an FO for only 46 PTS. In JSA, even though they can't form Fireteams, throwing on a 16 (with the +3 range bonus) is still quite acceptable. Ikari can even run a Duo of Discoball Tankos for just 38 PTS. Because of this unit, these factions—which traditionally struggle with long-range gunfights—can now bypass shooting engagements at a very low cost. And don't forget, even without the Discoball, the Tanko is still a BS13, 2-Wound unit with MA3. This leads to a bigger question: "If MSV can no longer stop an opponent's advance, will people still bring it?" Even if you bring MSV, your opponent will just drop a Discoball to cover the objective and finish the mission. If your mission runner is still nearby, they’ll likely use their superior CC to secure the kill. It’s very "hard to counter." You could argue that Repeaters can stop a Tanko or Domaru, but the "counter-to-the-counter" logic is an endless loop—and they aren't necessarily the ones doing the missions anyway. If the incentive to use MSV2 drops, units with Min(-6) naturally become stronger. This might partially explain why Steel Phalanx (SP) is still performing so well, and JSA Ninjas certainly benefit from this trend too. Also, it’s quite baffling that CB removed the positive range modifiers for Smoke in N5, yet gave them to the Discoball. Then there is the Karakuri, another shared unit for Oban, JSA, and Ikari. This unit is a pure case of aggressive point reduction; the base profile dropped from 41 PTS to 31 PTS—a 24.4% cost reduction. Is it really reasonable for a 3-Wound unit with Immunity (Enhanced)—which is tankier than a TAG in many scenarios—to get such a massive discount? Lastly, I’d like to propose a perspective: winning isn't necessarily about "being the best at missions," it's about "scoring more points than your opponent." Oban and JSA might not be the most efficient mission-running factions, but thanks to the Discoball and the Karakuri's point drop, their ability to prevent the opponent from scoring has improved drastically.
