Nasss gente que tal va todo?, bueno aqui vengo a hacer una propuesta de equipo/habilidad para el juego, no creo que esto sea muy habitual la verdad y tampoco se si el canal es el adecuado, pero el caso es que con motivo del último parche y la ausencia de mejoras para JSA, pues me motive a escribir un post, y una cosa llevó a la otra, y ya me vine arriba, y se me ocurrió una habilidad que se podría aplicar a una de las tropas que más necesita una mejora de la facción, que no es otro que el NOKIZARU. Ni que decir tiene que este equipo no ha sido testeado, ni soy una autoridad en la materia, simplemente se me fue ocurriendo un poco en el momento, y al final, humildemente me pareció que estaría muy guapa si se implementara de alguna forma en el juego. Pues eso que es una propuesta y si los desarrolladores de Corvus ven esto, y aprecian la posibilidad de algún tipo de viabilidad, o bien, pudiera ser el germen de cualquier otra habilidad o equipo, pues bueno, bienvenido sea, que no se diga que quedó ahí en el olvido. Para contextualizarla he usado un esquema similar al que usa corvus para los equipos y habilidades que vienen explicados en el pdf de reglas, y en resumen se trata de una especie de combinación de holoproyector, señuelo y sincronizado, que tiene un componente de teleport, cuyo resultado me ha gustado bastante la verdad. Aqui dejo el enlace del post de JSA, por si a alguien le apetece curiosear: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threa...parche-por-si-hay-alguien-al-otro-lado.43720/ DOPPELGANGER La tecnología detrás de los dispositivos Doppelganger, surgió a raíz de la investigación conjunta de los prestigiosos clanes ninja, incluidos en la lista Shinohara, es decir los grandes clanes Önishi, Kösetsu y Fukurö, dichos dispositivos, conocidos por unos como Kagemane y por otros como Kagebunshin, fueron desarrollados en secreto con los avances recientes que han obtenido del planeta Sinju, sin embargo, la rivalidad de estos clanes por llevarse el gato al agua en las investigaciones, solo logró que perdieran el sigilo que les caracteriza, y dicha información llegara a oídos de los Kuge, los cuales, se mostraron muy interesados por dicha tecnología, de tal manera que lograron hacerse con una gran cantidad de dispositivos para implementarlos en tropas de campo de la JSA, especializadas en el espionaje y subterfugio, los pocos supervivientes que han presenciado esta tecnología en acción, suelen llamarlos DOPPELGANGERs. Los Doppelganger son dispositivos nanotecnológicos, que surgen de recientes descubrimientos del planeta Sinju, cuyo portador puede crear una imagen sólida de sí mismo que porta parte de su ADN, y con el cual se puede intercambiar, para engañar a sus adversarios. Opcional, Retroalimentación ACTIVACIÓN > Automático en el momento del despliegue de su portador, situando en la mesa la tropa y el doppelganger, de manera que ambos cumplan la regla de Coherencia, y respetando las condiciones generales del Despliegue. > Durante el Turno Activo, la tropa puede recuperar a su doppelganger consumiendo una habilidad larga. Al final de la Orden el jugador situará su doppelganger en la Zona de Control de la miniatura. EFECTOS >En el turno activo, el jugador debe situar sobre la tropa un marcador de punta de lanza, conociéndose en todo momento que la tropa con el marcador se trata de la miniatura, y la otra tropa del doppelganger. >Cada vez que la tropa consuma una orden en turno activo, al inicio de la misma se situará el marcador de punta de lanza sobre una de las dos figuras, siendo la señalada con el marcador la miniatura real y la otra su doppelganger, esto se puede hacer de forma indistinta sobre una u otra en cada consumo de orden, y no es necesario que sea la misma en todo momento, siempre y cuando ambas figuras se encuentren en la mesa de juego. >La miniatura y su doppelganger actúan al unísono, ejecutando exactamente la misma Orden declarada. Sin embargo, el doppelganger solo puede replicar habilidades con la etiqueta movimiento (excepto berserk y esquivar), cualquier otra habilidad declarada por la miniatura, será replicada por el doppelganger como una inacción. >Los doppelgangers cuentan como tropas reales para proporcionar ORA, trazar LDT y activar armas o equipo enemigo (como minas, CrazyKoalas, etc.), las tropas reactivas sólo podrán escoger a una única figura de las dos como objetivo de su ORA, aunque no están obligados a que sea la misma para todas ellas. >En el turno reactivo, el jugador retirará el marcador de punta de lanza de la tropa, y en ese momento anotará en secreto cuál de las figuras es la miniatura y cual es el doppelganger. >El doppelganger no tiene ORA y no puede reaccionar a las activaciones de las tropas enemigas, permaneciendo estáticos en el mesa de juego. >En turno reactivo el doppelganger no replicara ninguna ORA de la miniatura, estando en su lugar estático, hasta que comience el turno activo o sea eliminado, ya que el mismo puede ser designado como objetivo. > Coherencia. Ambas figuras, independientemente de cual sea la miniatura y cual el doppelganger, deberán siempre cumplir la regla de coherencia, por lo tanto ambos deberán estar en Zona de Control. >Durante la Fase de Despliegue, tras situar ambas figuras en la mesa, el jugador puede realizar una Comprobación de Coherencia en Fase de Despliegue. >Tanto en turno Activo como en turno Reactivo, al activar la miniatura sea con Orden u ORA, el jugador deberá realizar una comprobación de coherencia inicial y final. >El doppelganger también replicará la habilidad Sigilo, si la miniatura hace uso de ella. >La miniatura no podrá perder los estados ni los tokens asociados a la misma por intercambiarse con su doppelganger, en todo caso los traslada con ella, excepto si porta tokens de OBJETIVO, en cuyo caso los dejará en la mesa de juego donde se encontraba inicialmente el punta de lanza. >Restricción: un doppelganger no podrá replicar aquellas armas o piezas de equipo posicionables que se manifiesten como marcador o miniatura anexa (FastPandas, Crazykoalas, Minas desplegadas por un minador…), no obstante el doppelganger si replica los token de estado (Cuerpo a Tierra, Fuego de Supresión). >Restricción: la miniatura con este equipo no puede formar parte de un Fireteam. CANCELACIÓN >Un doppelganger es retirado de la mesa de juego siempre que: >Sea descubierto por el enemigo. >Entre en contacto de Silueta con una miniatura enemiga, y viceversa. >Reciba un ataque exitoso, en ese caso no realiza tirada de salvación y se retira directamente. >No cumpla con la regla de Coherencia. >La miniatura pase a estado nulo o cancele el doppelganger por cualquier motivo de juego.
Hi, how’s it going? This post was originally in the Spanish forum, but the moderators decided to move it here, which is why it’s in Spanish. My English isn’t very good, so I’ll use AI to translate it so that everyone can share their feedback. Thanks, and I hope it’s more or less understandable! ### **DOPPELGANGER** The technology behind the Doppelganger devices emerged from joint research conducted by prestigious ninja clans, listed under the Shinohara registry—namely, the great Önishi, Kösetsu, and Fukurö clans. These devices, known to some as *Kagemane* and to others as *Kagebunshin*, were secretly developed using recent technological advancements obtained from the planet Sinju. However, the rivalry among these clans to claim credit for the research compromised their usual stealth, leading to a leak of information that reached the ears of the Kuge. Intrigued by the technology, the Kuge managed to acquire a large quantity of these devices to implement them within JSA field troops specialized in espionage and subterfuge. The few survivors who have witnessed this technology in action often refer to them as **DOPPELGANGERs**. Doppelgangers are nanotechnological devices, derived from recent discoveries on planet Sinju, that allow the user to create a solid image of themselves carrying a portion of their DNA. The user can then swap places with this image to deceive their opponents. --- ### **Optional: Feedback** --- ## **ACTIVATION** * **Automatic** at the time of deployment of its user, placing both the troop and the doppelganger on the table in a way that respects the **Coherency** rule and the general conditions of Deployment. * During the **Active Turn**, the troop can retrieve their doppelganger by spending a Long Skill. At the end of the Order, the player places the doppelganger within the **Control Zone** of the miniature. --- ## **EFFECTS** * In the active turn, the player must place a **Spearhead Marker** on the troop. It is always publicly known that the troop with the marker is the real miniature, and the other is the doppelganger. * Each time the troop spends an Order during the active turn, at the **start** of the Order the player must place the Spearhead Marker on one of the two figures. The one marked is the real miniature, and the other is the doppelganger. This choice can change from Order to Order, as long as both figures are still on the game table. * The miniature and its doppelganger act **in unison**, executing exactly the same declared Order. However, the doppelganger may only replicate **Movement** skills (except *Berserk* and *Dodge*). Any other skill declared by the miniature will be replicated by the doppelganger as **Idle**. * Doppelgangers count as real troops for purposes such as generating **ARO**, drawing **LoF**, and triggering enemy weapons or equipment (like Mines, CrazyKoalas, etc.). Reactive troops may only select one of the two figures as the target of their ARO, but are not required to choose the same one each time. * During the **Reactive Turn**, the player must remove the Spearhead Marker from the troop and secretly record which figure is the real miniature and which is the doppelganger. * The doppelganger does not generate AROs and cannot react to enemy activations, remaining **static** on the table. * During the Reactive Turn, the doppelganger will not replicate any of the miniature’s AROs. It remains static until the start of the next Active Turn or until it is eliminated, as it **can be targeted**. * **Coherency**: Both figures, regardless of which is the miniature and which is the doppelganger, must always remain in **Coherency**, i.e., within each other’s Control Zone. * During the **Deployment Phase**, after placing both figures on the table, the player may perform a **Coherency Check**. * In both the Active and Reactive Turn, when activating the miniature (via Order or ARO), the player must perform an **initial and final Coherency Check**. * The doppelganger also replicates the **Stealth** skill if the miniature uses it. * The miniature cannot lose any States or associated tokens when swapping with its doppelganger; they are carried over with the swap, **except** for **Objective tokens**, which are left on the table at the last known location of the Spearhead. * **Restriction**: The doppelganger cannot replicate deployable weapons or equipment that appear as tokens or miniatures (e.g., FastPandas, CrazyKoalas, deployed Mines, etc.). However, it **does** replicate state tokens such as **Prone**, **Suppressive Fire**, etc. * **Restriction**: A miniature equipped with a doppelganger **cannot be part of a Fireteam**. --- ## **CANCELLATION** A doppelganger is removed from the table if: * It is **discovered** by the enemy. * It comes into **Silhouette contact** with an enemy miniature (and vice versa). * It suffers a **successful attack**. In this case, it makes **no saving roll** and is immediately removed. * It fails to comply with the **Coherency** rule. * The miniature enters a **Null** state or **cancels** the doppelganger for any game-related reason.
Is the only difference between Holoecho and Doppelganger that the Doppelganger doesn't disappear when an attack is declared?
No, no — there are several different mechanics. One of them is what you mentioned, that the doppelganger doesn’t disappear when it attacks. Another is that the miniature and the doppelganger are always identifiable because the miniature carries the spearhead token. Another difference is that it’s not considered a "marker" state. Also, in each activation, the miniature and its doppelganger can swap places as if it were a teleport. So as you can see, it works somewhat similarly, but it has a very distinct mechanic.
Just what the game needs, more rules, and one that looks similar enough to an existing one so as to mess with new players... Let's check this "genius" idea: Better than Holoecho: instead of "teleporting" 1-2 base sizes due to the need of mixing the real troop with the echoes, you can now teleport for free up to ZoC. Unlike Holoechos you cannot Delay ARO, and while you know which is which, you are forced to consume the ARO against the decoy, like how Krazykoalas used to for Yojimbo and Morans (later more models, like Xi Zhuan in ISS), allowing for move-move orders without risk by exposing the decoy. Or just shooting or dodging with the owner, while the decoy is repositioned for a quick swap in the next order. No marker state means neither MSV nor Biometric visor interacts with this. Only Sensor and, indirectly (due to removing range penalties) X-Visor. Should an MSV1 or 2 unit get this, we are back to ITS-10's problem with the Xenotect dancing in front of a smoke template, forcing enemies to declare dodge or miss their chance to ARO, since the shoot comes in the second short order by the controller. In short, this is essentially a Peripheral (syncronized) that can neither roll dice nor declare anything, just move... but allows the controller to swap places with it because of magic. As if Peripheral was not already an overloaded rule with two and half pages... Seriously, this is not an RPG game, this is not a life emulation system. This is merely a skirmish game, already bloated with interactions because of too many skills and gear.
The swapping places part is neat, I do like that conceptually. It is a little too similar to existing rules, though. It's G: Jumper but the proxies are peripherals instead of staying inactive.
I don't know exactly what the game may or may not need, but what I do know is that you're in the section of the forum called 'rules suggestions'. And at least in my case, I believe both premises are being met: I'm making a suggestion, and it's about a game rule. If you don't like it, I think the best thing you can do is avoid entering this part of the forum, or you can contact Corvus and ask them to remove this supposedly unnecessary section. Regarding what you said about the overload of rules, I think the real issue for newcomers lies in certain interactions, not in the amount of gear and skills, as you pointed out. Throughout the different editions, gear and skills have been added and removed, and I don't see a problem with that. But you have your opinion, and I have mine — I believe both are equally valid and deserve respect. The word 'genius' is yours, not mine. In no way have I implied that the proposal was revolutionary, much less so. And since I know you understand Spanish perfectly well, I'll copy here the paragraphs from the original post that I see you missed. Ni que decir tiene que este equipo no ha sido testeado, ni soy una autoridad en la materia, simplemente se me fue ocurriendo un poco en el momento, y al final, humildemente me pareció que estaría muy guapa si se implementara de alguna forma en el juego. Pues eso que es una propuesta y si los desarrolladores de Corvus ven esto, y aprecian la posibilidad de algún tipo de viabilidad, o bien, pudiera ser el germen de cualquier otra habilidad o equipo, pues bueno, bienvenido sea, que no se diga que quedó ahí en el olvido. Yes, in that case it's better, no doubt about it, but in others it's worse. For example, Holoecho has automatic activation and surprise attack. In any case, I've already mentioned that I haven't tested any part of the proposal yet, and it's just an idea that can be modified. No, you are completely mistaken; that interaction doesn’t work like that. In fact, what you’re describing currently happens with links. You cannot move one as a decoy to force the rest to spend an ARO, and then move the others afterward. Likewise, you can’t expose one member of the link to force the opponent to shoot at them while another member shoots freely with a visor through smoke. These kinds of interactions are resolved by declaring the ARO, and if the conditions are met, it happens; if not, then it doesn’t. I think you’re a couple of editions behind. I have no idea what you're referring to here, I don’t see what visors have to do with this ability. As I mentioned before, it’s not a marker state, so it’s not necessary to reveal the troop. You can reveal the DOPPELGANGER to remove it from the table, but not because you have to — rather, maybe due to weapon range it’s more convenient to declare a reveal ARO instead of shooting. I refer you to my previous comment—you are mistaken about the interaction of the rules. What you mention here can currently be done in N5 with a link, where the shooter has a visor and is behind smoke cover. If you are performing the interaction incorrectly, that’s not the rules’ fault, but yours. I think you’ve summarized it quite well... but yes, that’s more or less it. However, when you refer to it as 'magic,' I understand a dismissive tone, whereas others might see it as science fiction—where dimensional portals, wormholes, nanobots that reassemble elsewhere, or even a species with such abilities exist. In short, I see that you didn’t like the proposal at all, which doesn’t bother me in the least—it’s totally respectable. What I do find less acceptable is the cocky, condescending, arrogant, and haughty tone you’ve shown. I just hope that if I ever feel like posting again in the future, you won’t interact with it.
I think you were really rude with your answer... They are many ways to express your thoughts, but no need to "be aggressive" or to "disqualified" only because you think different. It will more positive if ideas were exposed in general from empathy not from the "shit" any is carrying inside. This kind of answer you gave is what kills forums or communities chats.
No? You have to spend orders to move each proxy, and they act "autonomously" for (limited) ARO, and cannot be regenerated. They also don't act in tandem, forcing the opponent to declare an ARO against what's effectively an holoecho in no marker state. Proxy bodies can also be part of coordinated orders, but only with a single body (the Troop is the Posthuman). The doppleganger moves with the controller and allows to move the controller up to ZoC. This allows a model to move as much as a motorcycle would, without "crossing through the space". I believe you have not contemplated the full meaning of "rules suggestions". You can suggest rewording of a rule. A change of a rule. A revision of a rule. All of those are necessary. In fact, you can suggest new rules, for sure, and I agree this is the place for it. Complaining about getting a divergent opinion is something I think you'd be in the wrong. You think the game needs your idea, I think the game needs less new things and better optimization. It's that simple. Also, you forgot to contemplate the rule's interaction with Coordinate Orders. While custom states a unit with this would not be able to at any time (that is, regardless of the doppleganger being in the table or not), this absence makes it so this unit can be part of a Coordinated Order (another thing to confuse new players with). You see a videogame with a mechanic (or two, combined) you like and try to force such mechanic in a game. By itself that is not bad. What makes me say "genius idea" is that you have made a skill so similar to an existing one (Holoprojector) that breaks rules interactions, recreating a bug that made ITS-10 a mess for half a year, provides absurd levels of mobility (something a troop called Nourkias proved already how fun and balanced it can be, and this tries to replicate the same fast move + can't be attacked situation, unintentionally as it may had). And that such similitudes to existing rules are confusing for new players. Additionally, in N4 we got all the "expendable and renewable companions" (Crazykoalas, as I mentioned) removed from the game because they caused interaction problems, and to simplify the rules. TLDR? I call it "genius" because it reintroduces problems that had been solved and can confuse new players. I have no issues regarding the use of spanish and/or english, but please be consistent for the sake of all the other people in the forum. Either use all spanish, or all english, or translate duplicating the text in both (like you used in the opening posts). Regarding this two paragraphs, I just answer by saying your repeated usage of specific words comes out as false modesty to me. You made something up, a piece of gear in this case, so OWN IT. Present it, and let others judge, instead of starting and then reiterating how "humble" you are. You want to come and provide an idea? Just say so. "I was playing... I was watching... I was having a shower and then...". Diss me all you want, I had the courtesy of reading your whole post and provide feedback about specific problems, while thus far the other interaction with your work was clarification. I'm not asking for gratitude, just that you think that I've probably invested more time in this two posts than you did in thinking your gear/skill. I am not providing modification ideas for the concept because it's not my concept to mess with. It is not worse. It is, in fact, a better version just because it lets a teleport of 20cm / 8 inches, and in reactive turn you can swap them for free without cost, removing the identifier... And the copy won't banish in smoke as soon as the carrier rolls any dice. Also, you wrote that the respawn of the doppelganger (costing 1 whole order) is within the ZoC of the carrier. That is an unopposed teleport for the next order... BTW, holoprojector does not grant surprise attack. The troop has to have the Surprise Attack skill. Yes, it is exactly what happens. You can expose one member of your Fireteam in a fire lane, while keeping all the others hidden, with the first movement order, and all enemies get an ARO only against the member they saw, and then you can replicate the path with the rest of the fireteam. This is seldom useful because you are very likely getting your bait killed to gain a second move, which tends to be equal or shorter than the first, and because if the enemy drops a template in that path, ALL fireteam membes eat the template. However, you can at this time do the smoke+bait combo (as it was done in N4) safely in Haqquislam, like in N4, using for example the Namurr (Inmunity ENHANCED and Vita 2) and the Khawarij mk12 in a Duo in Ramah, supported by a ghulam with smoke (or an Al-Fasid if you want to go for broke) and a Tuareg Doctor (2W)... this is expensive as hell, but you get the interaction: The ghulam drops smoke on the Khawarij. The khawarij, from within the smoke, activates the first short order, declaring MOVE (and thus, he does not generate ARO unless the enemy has a MSV with LoS to the DUO, let's assume you are competent enough so as to not be in the enemy's ZoC or Hacking Zone) the Namurr walks outside of the smoke and lets one enemy to see them (remaining further than a circular template would need to take on the khwaraij too). The enemy troops with LoS must declare an ARO against the Duo, or lose it now. They can see a model, not a marker, so Delay is not an option. The fork is shooting (at the Namurr) or dodging. The khawarij shoots. Please note that you can do this too by using a troop with a Peripheral (Synchronized) within a White Noise zone against one enemy with MSV (I guess we got all those Deva profiles with devabot removed due to this... imagine a Triangulated Fire Deva shooting their combi against an intruder from within the White Noise zone...). If the enemy shoots at the Namurr, that's their ARO and the Khawarij shoots unopposed. The Namurr is ARM2, BTS6, and unless you try to face an enemy with B2+ in Reactive, it can't be killed even against a crit (2 wounds and it goes to Unconscious, choosing to fail Guts to go back). If the enemy dodges, the Khawarij shoots against the dodge and you can only lose an order (the dodge is better than the K's shots). Now, the difference here is that your idea allows for 2 things: Move + shoot/dodge: if the doppleganger is shot, the carrier shoots against 1 less enemy (win). If no one shoots the doppleganger, the carrier can shoot or dodge, and on the next order be where the doppleganger is now. If the carrier has an MSV, they can use the smoke+bait combo I just described before, without the need for a doctor and not caring about the doppleganger's survivavility. You mention that a Doppleganger can be removed from the table if Discovered, and that it's NOT a marker state. That means some visors that are used to discover enemies won't work (and as such their value goes down) while others still work (X-Visor removes a -3 modifier due to distance). In fact, I want to correct myself: Sensor won't work against this either, since it's not a Camouflage Marker... Mind you, this only means enemy units with laughable short range weapons (or none at all, like a Peripheral Servant) can remove the doppleganger with a Discover, all other units will most likely dodge it. I think it is you who is not reading the rules with enough care. A Fireteam Duo, a Peripheral and its master, and this doppleganger work the same when it comes to activation and ARO mechanics, even if the available selection of order/aro is different. You yourself have copied (more or less) the rulebook for Holoecho state... What you seem to fail to grasp is that your idea does not allow for delaying ARO (thus this Doppelgänger behaves like a Peripheral Synchronized), so the reactive troops must declare their ARO against the first of the doppelgänger or the carrier they have a valid ARO against, or lose the ARO entirely. Magic as in not explained, nor having a reference to it. It's irrelevant to the discussion, but pointing to the fact that this would be a new tech not previously covered in the game or lore at all, and it would have ramifications. No, I already stated that the game needs no more rules in the beginning. By stating Infinity is not an RPG I'm merely calling attention to a simple fact: there is no need to replicate thigs from anywhere into the game. Like shadow areas for regular grenades (it was a thing, yes). What you find acceptable is of no concern of mine. What is of concern to me is that you need to go back and read the rulebook but fail to notice it, making it impossible for you to realize the impact, and bugs, of this piece of gear. You haven't noticed, or consider, how important is, that, mechanics aside, I listed the teleportation itself as a problem. Why do I thing being able to "jump" what is essentially a Motorcycle first Move value is a problem? Any mission in which you have to touch & go suddenly gives you a free teleport back and forth, since you have not stated what could happen to anything the carrier of the Doppelgänger grabbed in the table (think Supplies, as a fast and easy example). Not to mention the impact of jumping forward, planting the D-charges/activating the panoply/etc... then jumping back to another safe position... A different problem, btw, is points and zone control... since you may be counting sometimes as part of your active turn and sometimes as part of the reactive.[/QUOTE]
