It’s time for vO-12 to stop paying extra costs. When N5 was first released, most people’s attention was drawn to Ariadna being weakened by the new core rules and to ALEPH’s “superheroes” defecting to the Combined Army. However, I personally believe that O-12 also experienced a noticeable drop in competitiveness in N5. Here are the reasons why: 1.Other sectorials received more significant buffs during the update. Overall, O-12 did improve compared to N4, but for equivalent upgrades, O-12’s changes were much more conservative. For example, when comparing the Gamma to Yu Jing’s Yan Huo, the Yan Huo gained Immunity (ARM) on top of its other buffs. Likewise, when comparing the Razor’s hacker upgrade to PanO’s Locust, the Locust’s HD and KHD profiles gained Firewall (-3) and Pitcher, while the Razor only received Trinity. Of course, the upgrades aren’t identical in nature, but it’s clear that O-12’s adjustments were more restrained. These examples aren’t meant to suggest O-12 should have received the same level of power creep, but rather to set the premise for this discussion. 2.Many of O-12’s signature tools have become common, eroding their “toolbox” identity. Since N5, Pitchers have become far less rare. All returning PanO sectorials now have access to Pitchers. Every Yu Jing sectorial also gained Pitchers. Even JSA’s Shinden Butai now carries them — and many of these units can join Fireteams, making their Hacking Area coverage far more efficient. Additionally, every faction except Ariadna now has access to Eclipse. Strategos L1 is also becoming more widespread across factions — for instance, PanO’s V PanO, KCF, and NCA, as well as JSA’s Shinden Butai, all possess it. 3.Unlike most factions, O-12 received not only buffs but also some nerfs. While the Zeta TAG did have its cost reduced like most TAGs, it lost Tactical Awareness. The Bluecoat’s minimum cost increased by 1 point, and due to the changes to NBW, it is now harder for Bluecoats to stop close-combat specialists. The Kappa Hacker profile also had its cost increased by 1 point. In a version where most factions were strengthened, having both buffs and nerfs puts O-12 at a disadvantage. Overall, O-12’s competitiveness in N5 looks rather unpromising. In N4, O-12 was characterized by having a wide variety of tools—but at the cost of paying extra points for them. As other factions gained more tools and stronger profiles, that advantage has largely disappeared. Therefore, O-12 units should no longer be paying such high premiums for their versatility. Below are the units I think could be improved. Kappa Compared to other factions’ line troopers, the Kappa’s cost feels unreasonable. The PanO Fusilier has nearly identical stats, yet the Kappa pays 2 additional points just for +1 CC, +1 WIP, and Immunity (Shock) — which is clearly not justified. This point difference applies to all profiles except the Hacker, and the Lieutenant profile even costs an extra 1 SWC. Whether in Starmada or vO-12, there’s rarely any reason to take other Kappa profiles, since in terms of both cost and efficiency, the unit doesn’t offer any meaningful advantage. Even as a filler unit, the Kappa provides poor value — for 12 points, you could instead take a Varangian Guard with Smoke, a Raveneye Officer with strong tactical options, or even a Tinker, which is 1 point cheaper, can perform objectives, and comes with a Repeater. As for the Hacker profile, it is indeed the cheapest HD in the entire game, even though its overall stats are not particularly impressive. However, its cost increased by 1 point in N5, which was undoubtedly a setback. Personally, I support that specific increase, but the costs of the other profiles are far too unreasonable and need adjustment. A general 1-point reduction across all non-Hacker profiles would likely be a more balanced fix. That said, I don’t believe even a 1-point decrease would make these profiles truly competitive — their functionality is simply too weak compared to PanO’s newly introduced Fennec Fusiliers. Even within vO-12, they’re easily outclassed. Still, such a change would at least be a step in the right direction. Bluecoat As the “classic police” archetype, I personally see the Bluecoat as the representative model of O-12. However, its points cost doesn’t match its capabilities. Other factions’ iconic units tend to have exceptional performance — for example, PanO’s TAGs or Yu Jing’s flagship heavy infantry — yet the Bluecoat is deeply disappointing by comparison. In N5, it was hit even harder. The change to NBW made it less reliable at countering close-combat monsters, and the Sixth Sense adjustment made it less dependable against Camo units. To make matters worse, its 13-point loadout was increased to 14 points. The only beneficial change was the removal of Immunity (Total), but that certainly doesn’t justify a price increase. Whether using the SMG or BSG profiles, all are overpriced — no one wants to pay 16 or even 17 points for an incompetent cop who can’t shoot straight (BS12), runs slower than the criminals (MOV 4-4), is fragile (1W, 1 ARM), and isn’t even a Specialist. The Red Fury profile is even more absurd at 25 points. This unit’s PTS values need a full re-evaluation — I personally believe that a flat reduction of at least 2 points across all profiles would be the minimum required just to make it worth discussing. Cyber Ghost Some players may disagree with my assessment, but I’d still like to explain the current state of this unit in N5. The N5 rules dealt a significant blow to the Cyber Ghost. Since the Pitcher no longer gains a +3 modifier at 8–16 inches, the unit’s reliability has dropped noticeably. The success rate of throwing at least one Repeater with two Orders went down from 91.1% to 79.8%, and the chance to land both Repeaters with two Orders fell from 49% to 30.3%. Meanwhile, many factions gained access to Pitchers in N5, most of which are on units with higher BS than the Cyber Ghost, often Linkable within their Sectorals, and some even come with X-Visor. When it comes to expanding their hacking networks, these factions now outperform the Cyber Ghost. Of course, the Cyber Ghost still has access to White Noise, which remains an area unexplored by PanO and Yu Jing, but when we talk purely about hacking warfare, O-12’s tools are far more limited. O-12’s Infiltration units also lack Deployable Repeaters, while factions like PanO, Yu Jing, and Haqq have them — and Yu Jing even gained a Minelayer unit with a Deployable Repeater in N5. In this version, if a new player asked me to name the most versatile all-rounder, I’d hand the trophy to Yu Jing, because their hacking toolkit is broader and stronger. At this point, the Cyber Ghost mainly serves as a White Noise generator and a defensive hacker. If you try to use it as an offensive tool, you’ll likely be disappointed. In short, with Pitchers becoming far more common, can the Cyber Ghost still be called a reliable hacking unit? I have my doubts. That said, if someone believes the HDP access alone justifies its 21-point cost, I can understand that perspective. Cho-Psi Both the Lieutenant and Chain of Command profiles are overpriced. For a low-cost Lieutenant, there’s already the Raveneye, and for Chain of Command, there’s the Ment Agent. In my opinion, both Cho profiles need at least a 3-point reduction to be considered competitive. Far too many points are wasted on Holomask. Alpha The Chain of Command profile looks just as foolish when compared to the Ment Agent. Lawkeepers Like the Bluecoat, the Lawkeeper is a very representative unit for O-12 — a well-equipped, high-speed enforcer accompanied by a servant bot, always ready to make an arrest. They always come with the Specialist Operative trait, and often have a glue-bot companion, which feels very fitting for O-12’s theme. In N5, the Lawkeeper received about a 1-point cost reduction, along with Dodge +3 and Limited Cover. However, among all 1-Wound motorcycle units (excluding characters), this is still the most expensive, with the cheapest profile costing 18 points. While it’s true that the Lawkeeper has more equipment and skills than most, it still doesn’t justify the cost. If we compare it to JSA’s Aragoto, the differences become clear. Both have BS12, ARM2, MOV 8-6, Limited Cover, Impetuous, and Mimetism (-3). Looking specifically at the Boarding Shotgun profile, the Lawkeeper gains: Specialist Operative, Dodge +3, BS Attack (SR-1), DTW upgraded from Boarding Pistol → Chain Rifle, and an extra Multi Pistol for close-range fire. However, the Aragoto costs only 13 points, while the Lawkeeper costs 18 points. I don’t have an issue with it being a Specialist Operative — that strongly reflects O-12’s mission-oriented design. But while BS Attack (SR-1) is a good skill, this unit only has BS12, far from being a strong gunfighter, so paying extra points for that ability doesn’t make sense. Dodge +3 may make it a bit tougher, but at the end of the day, it’s still just a 1-Wound unit. The Multi Pistol feels redundant on the BSG profile, and paying extra points for it is unjustified. And overall, when a BS12 unit has to pay a large premium just to carry “good weapons,” that’s already a sign that the pricing is questionable. I hope the Lawkeeper receives more attention in future updates. Parvati Although her cost was reduced by 2 points, she’s still somewhat too expensive, and her SMG lost its AP ammo. There’s likely still room for a further point reduction to make her easier to include in lists. Sonya Overall, this unit feels awkward no matter where you place it. Although it has MA2, its CCW only has Shock, and with just 1 Wound, it’s prone to unexpected deaths in the midfield. Albedo (-6) can be useful at times, but since it carries a Multi Rifle, it can’t effectively counter setups like MSR + MSV. It’s too expensive and ineffective for defense, its role is unclear, and its points cost is simply too high. Silverstar Rovers Many of their profiles are clearly overcosted. They all have the Specialist Operative skill, yet there’s no apparent discount on the FO or Paramedic profiles to reflect that. If the excessive cost comes from the useless Jump (3") skill, then please — just remove it. Zeta Although it’s still a solid TAG even after losing Tactical Awareness, it lacks a non-NCO Lieutenant profile, which I hope can be added. I don’t want to pay extra points for NCO when using a Lieutenant with Strategos L1, and such a profile would also serve as a useful option for concealing the real Lieutenant.
I do think it would be wise to wait and see if most of these legit complaints are addressed in the about to be deployed game balance update. Once it hits, the discussion around this would be more useful to see what can be improved.
No. All factions and sectorials were "translated" from N4 to N5. Some units may have got point discounts due to changes in general rules, profiles, desired presence of type (for example, HI being made cheaper... again), etc... Some units have to change skills because said skills changed their meaning. Bioinmunity allowed the Yan Huo to use either ARM or BTS for any saving throw, so it could negate all AMR modifiers by rolling BTS, or negate all BTS modifiers by rolling ARM. Sound awfully similar to Inmunity (ARM) in N5, I'd say... On the other hand, the Gamma (a 2 wounds + NWI ARM 6 BT6 mov 6-2 unit...) dropped a DA weapon (overcost unless for breaking objectives in the table, since his melee 16 is... low) and got to 50pts, 5 more expensive than the Yan Huo. But you don't mention that it has +1PH too over the Yan Huo, and has Courage (you pay for this) instead of Religious Troop (this gives points). The Yan Huo is a heavy, slow strongpoint, but the Gamma is a fast attack brick... Have you factored into your evaluation that O12 was designed for N4 (and released at the end of N3), while the units you mention have been there a decade or so before, since N3? They may need more adjustments. I suppose we should remove O12's pitchers, since those were a nomad staple way before O12 was launched then? Incidentally, this same thing happened with Haris fireteams to Qapu Khalqui, not to mention Tohaa with their unlimited Triads (Haris). Or Steel Phalanx, whose limitation to not be able to field 5 man fireteams was that they could deploy "as many" (that is, as allowed by the points, so never more than 4 at 300pts) 4 man cores as they wanted while now we see Morat or New Wave with 2 Haris, unlimited Duos and one 5man core... Hint: O12's identity was not pitchers, was the weapon designed for them, the riotstopper. Frankly, you contradict yourself here. If the removal of iconic units like Achilles (which was the 10 year anniversary model, so some of us old timers have THREE different Achilles models...) was not a nerf, I don't know what is. Sure, more for Vanilla Aleph than SP, but even so... ah, Eclipse smoke? That was an Aleph thingie. Strategos? Same thing on the humans, EC had its own. Got NCO, same thing, cheaper. All TAGs have either. No. NBW is a "no negatives, thanks". See the rules, you won't negate the Martial Arts bonus... but you certainly ignore all CC(-3) or CC(-6) around. See a Moderator's profile (melee weapon) or an Uberfallkommando. NBW got sidegraded from "hunting martial artists" to "ignore distractions", so a wider but shorter pool of possible targets. First time suffering the rotation? Granted the more time has passed the more it gets noticed... Better get used to this: CB will mind more new products than old ones, until a resculpt comes, unless something horrible happens. Those "old sectorials" back in the game but OOP? this last update is the only one they'll get until re-release (if) or another edition change, and has been since the last time CB wanted something sold (Reinforcements boxes... then N4, then N3). I disagree entirely. First, 1 WIP == 1CD == 1ARM (aprox) in cost, it has been like this since forever (see Alguaciles and Fusiliers for example), so for 2pts the basic kappa gets extra WIP, and Inmunity Shock (the +1CC can be considered a filler for a fraction of a point); the SWC cost is not comparable, since when talking about Lt's it's a way to "force" some out (just use a raveneye or Cho in Holomask like everybody...) As for the other profiles, dude... the SWC cost hasn't changed between editions for the kappas. I mean, the Lt has costed 1 SWC since the end of N3 when the faction launched, like the rest of the SWC costs... the Hacker was 15pts back then, mind you, and the point increase is because the SMG was recosted in N5. Additionally, while you are forced to get them in the starmada box, you have the only basic troop with special weapons with models... all other basic troops since Blackwind or so got the SWC boxes gutter and no new ones released... Won't happen, unless CB releases new models with cheaper weapons than combis, which is the reason of the cheap cost of the Kappa Hacker (SMG instead of Combi). They lose 1 AMR and gain 3 BTS, its a 1:1 change... They are worse than kappas because WIP 12 Vs WIP 13, but they get extra kit (Emitter, Fastpanda), paying 3 extra points... Yu Jing's "flagship heavy infantry" is not the one you think. The premium are Shang Jisus, for sure... but the HI troop that gives YJ the "HI Faction" hat is the Zhuyong... which is a cheap basic HI. Lorewise, they can field as many of those as almost everyone else in the Human Sphere put together... Also it was a new unit in N4, it had no profile in N3, so not so iconic for O12, I'd say. As fopr cost, more or less they stay OK, since the Kobra pistol replaces the Pistol and Shock Weapon from N4, and the pther weapons were recosted. Again, be mindful of non-evident changes: in N4 the Bluecoat had +1B with the Adhesive Launcher, but back then that weapon was B1, now it's B2, so it would be more expensive... I agree here CB should clarify why the same effect costs +1pt in N5, however. Already mentioned the NBW change. As for the Sixth Sense change, forget it, it's a case of "everybody eats it equally", the same happens with the Rifle + Light Shotgun in Haqquislam units: those were not recosted when in N4 the shotguns got B2 teardrop templates, and weren't recosted in N5 when they lost all templates. I'm hearing Nomad chuckles here... Go see Aleph's Danavas and marvel at the almost twins, then wonder.. WIP+1 or BTS+3. And then count how many repeaters, deployable repeaters, pitchers, fastpandas... O12 and Aleph have vs each other, then riddle me this: which is the faction of AIs and dependant on Maya? You seem to forget she has a Multi-Rifle, shock inmunity, and a nanopulser, so she's not only paying for the holomask, but for choosing if the opponent rolls BTS or ARM (halved, or twice, or shock...). And she counts as Security, so linking her with a kappa or sekudroid or bluecoat or raveneye already gives her fireteam bonuses... She gets lonely, don't leave Cho unlinked. Younger children favored in CB's release? Color me surprised... Also, the Alpha was used at the beginning. It was soon discarded as too much high risk and obvious. Not to mention, as usual a Guardian model not respecting the Silhouette value. Consider the Ment agent has a lighter loadout and so pays less. Please... look better before making such remarks. NOTE: Limited Cover + Mimetism-3 is standard for all bikes in N5. SR-1 is unique in the Lawkeeper among all bikes outside O12. Penthesilea (yes, she's a character) is a 28pts biker with a single profile. Incidentally, among her skills is CC Attack (-6) (remember the Bluecoat with NBW? She only got affected by him in N5). TAK: Dynamo's cheaper specialist (Paramedic) is 15pts & 0.5 SWC, packs a smoke grenade launcher (Dodge +3 would be somewhat similar here in a vacuum), has no cube (the cube costs, it has an effect. You cannot rerroll Doctor on units without cubes), gets a BSG (same as Lawkeeper) BUT regular pistol (vs MULTI pistol), regular CCW (vs PARA -3) and NO Chain Rifle, -1ARM, -3 BTS, +1PH, -3CC. The Dynamo has a shock mine dispenser, its dodge bonus in distance is half of the Lawkeeper (and if it smoke-dodges, then it won't move at all, so it's a moot bonus most of the time), and it's dogged vs the BS Attack SR-1 of the Lawkeeper... I'd say the Lawkeeper is better for the cost here. 112: 19pts, single loadout, Doctor, worse or equal stats to the Lawkeeper aside from PH+1, has BOTH smoke grenades and Grenade launcher (overcost if you ask me, the +1 for using PH while in ZoC with the smoke grenades I'd doubt justifies 1 or 2 pts), and carries a Light Shotgun, boarding pistol (so small teardrop template at least) and CC weapon... Again, worst than the Lawkeeper, but it's a doctor. Carmen Johns and Batard: 17pts, better than the lawkeeper due to Booty. Another troop with CC Attack (-6). It also has a syncro. Still, BS 11 Nomads: Zondnautica... 17pts the cheaper one, Smoke grenade launcher, BSG, chain rifle. BUT regular pistol and regular CCW, no dodge modifiers at all, CC-3, PH+1, ARM+1, no specialist unless you go hacker (23pts) with Combi, Chain rifle, SGL and Flash Pulse.. Characters shown as example for the Bluecoat's NBW... Aleph says: 1) it's not an O12 unit, but an Aleph one. 2) It can't be cheapened due to the cost of all other doctors and/or engineers in both factions, and she has FOUR wounds (structure 2, Remote Presence), plus she's not hackable. Don't look at the SMG's, all SMGs in the game were changed so no recost for anyone here, she still has a Flash Pulse with WIP 15... As for the speesh mehreens from Torchlight, I won't talk there, since It's among the few sectorials I don't have and never even considered playing. I'll say it was released as OP and its time went by - again, youngest sons get favoured... until a younger one pops up and some semblance of balance must be restored.
yeah so much for good changes. O-12 Kappa: MULTI Sniper SWC reduced to 1. Bluecoats: Discover (+3) → (+6); all weapons reviewed; new option with Disco Baller. Firebat: BS 13; ARM 4; loses BS Attack (SR-1); gains BS Attack (+1 SD), NCO, and Tech-Recovery; weapons, costs, and SWC reviewed; added to Starmada (AVA 1). All troops like the Kappa sniper go the SWC reduction. So not a big deal. Bluecoat changes are nice but not amazing. He might show up one in a while. Firebat was already not bad I think. But it did get better. I'm glad it's now in Starmada.
Pitcher ranges got adjusted. Santiagos got changed: MOV 6-2; Pistol → Boarding Pistol; loses Nanopulser; new FTO Lieutenant Hacker option. Bluecoats are now one of the only 2 sources of Disco Ballers in the Sectorial, with no Eclipse available, and they link quite easily in a core or haris, so... how about a Disco Baller Bluecoat, Bronze and Vidoq doctor Security Haris?
You mentioned that Bioimmunity works similarly to Immunity (ARM). Should we first confirm the functional differences between the two? For the Gamma, Courage is a skill it originally had. In N4, the Yan Huo didn’t have Religious Troop or Courage. After the Yan Huo gained Immunity (ARM), Religious Troop isn’t necessarily a drawback. Also, that part of my post wasn’t meant to compare the relative power levels between the two; it was an example of a conservative buff. I clearly stated: “These examples aren’t meant to suggest O-12 should have received the same level of power creep, but rather to set the premise for this discussion.” So I don’t understand why you’re insisting on bringing up the strength and role differences between them here. Should the need for adjustment really depend solely on how early or late it appears in the version? Isn’t it simply that if something has a problem, it should be fixed? I don’t understand what you’re trying to say with that comment. In this post, I never suggested that other Sectorals should lose the tools they gained — I only mentioned the point cost. If you’re interpreting that as “removing tools,” then you’re twisting the intent of my post. And if you’re calling the Riotstopper a unique feature, I’m sorry, but Yu Jing’s ISS now has plenty of them too. I was referring to most factions, not all of them. And didn’t I already mention Ariadna and ALEPH at the very beginning? Also, your paragraph doesn’t actually explain what impact other factions gaining more tools has on O-12. If you simply believe this doesn’t affect O-12’s competitiveness, then you should present your reasoning — not talk about “removing tools” or how “this kind of thing has happened in past editions.” That kind of argument doesn’t contribute anything to the discussion about O-12’s competitiveness. Looking at this difference doesn’t make it competitive — in fact, the Bluecoat didn’t perform well even in N4. Providing a reason why it’s actually competitive would be far more meaningful than just saying it has certain equipment and therefore costs a certain number of points. So let me ask you this: would any competitive list actually include this unit? In case you forgot, the Danavas got upgraded with Oblivion +1B and is linkable in OSS. Also, the points you brought up don’t really have much to do with what I mentioned about the hacking network. The reality is that in N5, the strength of the hacking area varies greatly between factions. The Zhanshi’s cost was reduced by 1 point from N4 to N5 because it lost Dodge (+1"). Nothing is impossible — if we’re here to discuss, then let’s discuss. If you just want to say something is impossible, then what’s the point of having a forum at all? I don’t understand what you mean here — I’m fully aware of the NBW changes. When I mentioned “stopping close-combat specialists,” I was clearly referring to units with high Martial Arts (MA). Do you really consider a unit armed with Para CC (-6) to be a “close-combat specialist”? Or do you think a unit with CC Attack (-6) is more dangerous than one with MA3 or higher levels of MA? Let me give a few concrete examples: Against high-MA units: it only cancels the effect of MA1 — the rest of the bonuses still apply, so it’s weaker than before. Against units with NBW: PARA (-6) doesn’t work; you’re just rolling a regular CC face-to-face — again, weaker than before. Against CC-6 units: it performs better than before. Putting these three situations together, the only case where it’s actually better than before is against CC-6 opponents. But in practice, in N5 the Bluecoat’s close-combat performance is worse than in N4 in almost all situations — because most “CC monsters” you’ll face in your DZ are MA experts, not CC-6 units that try to kill you in melee during their active turn. Most melee specialists rely on their high crit rate, not on lowering the opponent’s success chance. And it’s even worse for Bluecoats when facing NBW units, since they’ve lost their previous effectiveness there too. After all, NBW used to be most useful against those CC-X units that were inefficient at attacking in melee. Let me ask you simply — would you actually choose her over the Ment Agent just because of those weapons? If we’re talking about extra skills or equipment, the Ment also has Biometric Visor, Number 2, and Stealth. Not to mention, Cho is just a lousy BS11 shooter. “Judging a unit’s point cost purely by looking at its skills or weapons is strange and meaningless.” The reality is, no one would give up a Ment Agent to take Cho. I’m very surprised you think the Lawkeeper’s skills are more useful than the functionality of Smoke and the Dispenser. Also, let me ask you again: would a Lawkeeper actually appear on a competitive list? Let me ask you the same thing — would a competitive list actually include Parvati? If not, then no matter how many advantages you mention, they’re meaningless. Because all those positives you mentioned aren’t enough to make her worth putting on the table. And sure, you can say she’s an Aleph unit — that’s fine. But is she actually competitive within Aleph? If not, then what’s the point of bringing her up? Kappa’s changes are just standard adjustments — many factions have received similar tweaks. This doesn’t actually make Kappa any more competitive. Bluecoats got a points reduction, and every profile’s HRS gained +1 Burst. If we go by that person’s logic that every weapon stat increase should cost points, then the cheapest profile should now only be 14 points, lol — since that extra Burst on the HRS should add cost. The Disco Baller profile is indeed a highlight and might be worth trying out. But aside from the 13-point loadout and the Disco Baller loadout, I have no intention of considering the other options. The Firebat changes are excellent. I never wanted to use that unit before — a BS12 SMG just felt too weak. Now, its profiles are better both offensively and defensively, and the cost feels much more reasonable.
Now that the balance patch has been deployed let's talk again about this matter. Kappa Although the cost of the Kappa is indeed step compared with a fusilier, when you compare it with a humble Kamael you realise it is not so bad comparing the statline. A Kamael is paying 12 points for a CC 13 CD 11 PH 11 WIP 13 ARM 1 combirifle with no shock inmunity. When a Kappa is paying the same 12 points for a CC 14 CD 12 PH 10 WIP 13 ARM 1 combirifle with shock inmunity. Maybe a 10 points fusilier is more efficient on the task of being a cheerleader? Debatably, as the fusilier usually only do that, cheerlead, while the Kappa and Kamael works as a cheap (security) or (triad) filler to make key elements of their respective sectorials reach FireTeam Purity. This is something that also needs to be taken in account in the cost of the unit. Sincerely, the only thing that Kappas need is something that make then less a professional soldier fusilier ready for war and more akin 'officially peacemaker deployed troop'. Celestial Guards for example have riotstoppers, which clearly says 'police unit officer'. Since PARA CC weapons, Riotstoppers, and ADHL are already Bluecoat / Sekudroid stuff, I would give them something else for differentiation. Personally I would give them Stun Pistols instead of Pistols. This upgrade would impact then the minimun, while at the same time reinforcing their supposedly peacemaker role. With the new CC changes of N5, there won't be any unexpected issues of making them OP in CC, since pistols can not be used in CC anymore. Bluecoat The lastest changes make them look better compared to a Ment for the base case, and provides something unique in the form of discoballer. Now it has a place and a role. Personally I would get rid of the boarding shotgun and the redfury profiles. Following the same logic that make Corvus remove the HMG Nyoka profile: The model does not exist, no one use such profiles, and reduces bloat. Lawkeeper The problem with the lawkeeper is not one of comparison with other units such as the Aragoto. But a problem with Specialist Operatives Limited Cover units with a S4 base that are unable to climb or jump vertically or use ladders and also are supposed to have a firepower capacity with only 1W: * You're paying extra for the Specialist Operative capacity, when you won't be able to push buttons placed in places unable to reach for you, ever. Being unable to dismount in n5 is extremely unfortunate in this case. * You're paying extra for the firepower capacity when you're already gimping yourself wih the Limited Cover. See, the troops with Limited Cover or No Cover with a Firepower role NEED something else to justify themselves. Either extremely High MIM, Mobility and High CD... such as all the Aerial Vehicles and just recently all of them got an extra point of CD and their costs adjusted. Or another gimmick such as the new CD Attack (-3) of the ML Teuton. What I would do in the case of the Lawkeeper? Be BOLD. Give them Climbing Plus. TADA! Now their natural fireteam members of OKO and Roadbot, both of them with Climbing Plus, can move around the table seamselessly with them. The capacity of Climbing Plus allow them not only to finally push buttons that were otherwise literally impossible for them to reach, but also allows them to use their high mobility to be able to reach Shooting Positions where the enemy does not have the advatange of Partial Cover either. Mind the powerful combination of Climbing Plus with a Dodge +3 and Dodge +2'' they already have for this. With that, and the already relatively low cost of the Lawkeeper, you won't need any additional changes to make them viable. I will continue later in a following post with additional suggestions for the Nyokas, Bronzes and Zeta.
Nyokas The FTO options really really need other role and function other than “cheapest way to give a Bronze +1SD pure DUO bonus”. Although the lore of them is literally that they tag along Bronzes all the time in the field. Specially since it feels awkward to pair a 4-4 MOV troop with a 6-2 MOV. What to do with them? Latest interactions of N5 have provide us a tool that may finally make them shine without making them OP neither giving them optic mods: Attack CD (+1SD). At least for the FTO options. With this, now the ARO piece of HRL can stand a chance to fit even with just their base CD12 and double their duty as a quite aceptable long range pointman in active turn. The FO also benefits for this, and I would go a little bit extra and give him a flash pulse. If their cost need to be adjusted upward due to this +1SD let it be. And I would give them 6-2 MOV to all of them too. But this is because I hate unmatched MOV values for a Fireteam when tagged along the Bronze that needs to be with them lore-wise. Crushers Give them Decoy(1) or Decoy(2) and you will see all the FD options being fielded regularly instead of being shelved and collecting dust forever. And please, make them downgrade their E/M cc weapons to a just regular shock weapon, as the Infermarier of MO/SWF did, to lower their cost. Bronzes They’re already quite solid. I would just give the Sekudroid a (Bronze) tagline or the KoS FTO a (Bronze) tagline for their Fireteam. With just this, you would naturally fit a Bronze in the Nyoka or Bronze team with gusto, instead of what we are currently seeing that it is just more profitable to make it a lynchpin of a Security Team. Additionally I would give the Heavy Shotgun model a +1B for its HSG. and any kind of direct template, be it either a boarding pistol, a chaincolt, a chainrifle, a nanopulser, a pulser, a light or heavy riotstopper, or a zapper or a e/marat. This would help it to have a niche role of 'close quarters specialist'. Zeta When compared to the Dragao it clearly stands out the 2 SWC cost is a relic that should go away, and make it again 1.5 SWC cost. I would also debate the option of having it a Tactical Awareness, but it is ok if not.
You gave a really good example that successfully convinced me to agree with your point of view. Giving them a Stun Pistol is a great idea. In Starmada, it’s indeed possible to consider using the Discoball loadout, but in VO-12 it might not be a good choice. As for the BSG and RF loadouts, if CB hasn’t optimized them into viable options, then removing them would indeed be better. Although I think comparing it with other units is meaningful, you indeed proposed an alternative that fits O-12 much better. Thank you for providing such an interesting and practical suggestion. The changes you mentioned would definitely help him, especially increasing his movement to 6-2 — I think that’s quite necessary. However, the +1SD change is a bit risky, since with Fireteam bonuses, having 3 dice in ARO could be a bit too strong. That said, considering PanO’s most recent changes, this kind of adjustment actually seems fairly reasonable. It just depends on when CB will finally care about this poor guy who’s been frozen since N4. I’d also like to add a few thoughts: according to the background description on Human Sphere, this unit operates alongside the Bronze, so perhaps some new loadouts could be added to let him better support them — for example, giving him a KHD profile, or equipment that allows him to do things the Bronze can’t, such as a Deployable Repeater or a Mine Dispenser. If you hadn’t mentioned it, I would’ve forgotten how long it’s been since I last took them out for some fresh air. Also, Santiago doesn’t share a tagline with the Bronze, which is quite unfortunate for the Bronze Fireteam’s DUO option. However, it seems that this is how all of Starmada’s Fireteams are designed — including units like Hector, Bixie, Parvati, and Shona — since none of them are originally O-12 units, they don’t have the tagline either. 1. Casanova This unit has indeed received some improvements in N5, but his abilities are still quite far from what’s described on Human Sphere. Even setting aside the legendary “Undercover” aspect, his Infiltration (PH=15) success rate is not particularly impressive — only 60%. On top of that, compared to the Forward Deployment (FD) profile, he even loses the MineLayer option. I think he should instead have Infiltration (PH=18) by default, without needing to split his profiles between FD and Infiltration. This would raise his success rate to 75% making him much more appealing to use. And maybe Decoy(1) could be upgraded to Decoy(2), since he doesn’t have Camo and his survival in the first turn is something to be concerned about. It would be ideal if he could have Impersonation, which would truly complete his “Undercover” identity — though that might be a bit greedy. 2. Hector One of ALEPH’s “superhumans,” but not actually a standout performer. Hector only has BS 13 and MOV 4-4, which isn’t impressive. Even within the Steel Phalanx, he’s a rather hard-to-justify choice. Deploying him costs at least 61 points, and if he can’t serve as a primary attack piece, that’s quite disappointing. Unfortunately, his stats and equipment often put him at a disadvantage in gunfights, and his 4-4 MOV limits his efficiency — his strong CC ability rarely comes into play. While his Lieutenant skill is good, paying at least 64 points for him is a tough pill to swallow, both in Starmada and in Steel Phalanx.
I like some of these ideas. some I think might be too much. I've been doing really well with vO-12. I especially love a haris of two Jackboots and a Gamma. JB because they are Veteran, MI, specialists. I would take a ENG and Medic or a HRL. Warhorse has been helpful for going up against E/Mitters and such. Lawkeeper. I still love the Lawkeeper. The only thing I'd possibly change is that he should have Mim -6. He doesn't have smoke launcher so he need something. What I have NOT been using are the below. Gangbuster and Crushers. I'm never a fan of mid-field troops without camo. If you are going second they are target priority #1 and usually dead first turn and are nothing more than expensive speed bumps. Why take a Crusher when I can take a Razor? Bluecoats. They care kinda cheap but don't do anything that I want. Other than the Red fury they are short ranged, not really good in CC. They can possibly take down standard troops but that's about it. the Disco baller is now a possibility but not having in a team makes it less likely in vO12. The Psi cop at least is a specialist and has an X-Visor to help and can be in a duo to get +1 SD. But after the disco ball is down he's nothing more than an order monkey. Tinker, I still don't see the point of this. It's a cheap specialist but can't get to the things it needs to do. I could take a monstrucker for 1pt more who is Irregular but if he uses that for a dropbear, it's worth it. The same for a Raveneye.
I play mostly Starmada, and I fit her into list about half the time. Alot of the DZ parachutists live in my meta, and I really value a turn zero repeater, that is not on an S3. I usually then use her as part of a coordinated order to get up the board a bit. Ive had multiple games where she's positioned in a clutch spot for the cyberghost to white noise through her repeater.
Hey, I’ll admit it — giving Casanova Impersonation was a crazy idea. I think CB will probably keep all Motorcycles at Mimetism (-3). The C+ that Rabble mentioned likely won’t be introduced either, since the rules specifically state that Motorcycles can’t Climb — they probably don’t want bikes moving on vertical surfaces. But as a side note, PanO can now get a 19-point unit with BS Attack (+1B) and an X-Visor Pitcher, so at this point, I wouldn’t be too surprised by any crazy idea that comes up. Aside from the KHD profile, Gangbusters aren’t Specialists, and their cost isn’t exactly cheap, which makes them less appealing. But as you said, the KHD profile is very likely to be lost in the first turn. In the N5 environment, where other factions have received significant boosts in hacking warfare, a KHD with BTS 3 and no Firewall just doesn’t cut it anymore. In the latest update, their cost was reduced by 1 point. I still think that, aside from the Discoball loadout, all other Bluecoat profiles are too expensive. As you mentioned, their CC isn’t great. Personally, I hope Bronze and Bluecoat could have their CC Attack modifier changed to -9, so they can better adapt to the N5 changes to Martial Arts. However, even with Para (-9), they still wouldn’t be very appealing. CB really needs to think carefully about how to make the other loadouts of this unit more attractive. A low-cost Regular Order is quite rare for O-12. With Monstruckers available in VO-12, they’re usually the preferred choice in most cases. However, in Starmada and TLB, the second-cheapest Gizmokit option costs 5 points more. And since you can only field one Kytta, if you want to place a second Repeater in the DZ, your only cheap option besides the completely unarmed Fuzzbot is a higher-cost unit. I think the current Tinker profiles are fine — if it dropped by 1 more point, that’d be great, but even if it stays the same, it’s still acceptable. After all, it’s O-12 — sometimes when building lists, you really do need that 11-point Regular Order.
I was only taking vO12 into account here since that was what the OP is about. Starmada I think is a different case. I haven't played in in N5 yet but I can see taking the Bluecoat DB in it for instance though again the Psi cop is better. The Tinker is a maybe if I happen to have the points.
Yes, you said you didn't see the point. I was sharing a use with you that works the same in all of 012
