Not even that (from a fellow Haqq player). Antipodes are S5, that is - big HI on a 40mm base. Same size as Azra'il / Al Fasid. Bikers are S4 - on a 55mm base.
My guess is probably for the same reason people love the Überfallkommando yet don't auto-win by taking it: it's actually not easy to use them correctly. But I'm with you, I think they're great.
@Brokenwolf Antipode assault packs are indeed better than they were in N4 but mainly due to the fact that GML is weaker against their controller and ability to go prone after moving. They rarely kill anything but are apt at tying enemies into melee by (ab)using the delay mechanics.
@burlesford UFK is back into automatic killing business after recent climbing+ changes. Basically they can once again ignore terrain and ARO bait enemies in melee to give them free hacks. Vulnerability to flashpulsebots and zero range bands in eclipse hurt a bit.
To make things a little more specific: I recently hosted a little private tournament for a couple friends. As a treat, every player got to choose one unit they felt were underperforming, which then received a buff. The TAK player asked to have the Tankhunters buffed. This is what we settled on: Basically, the idea is to make them as scary in ARO as their fluff says they are, while trimming unneccessary stuff like the Mines. While the data is by no means exhaustive, none of the players felt they were overpowered, and instead just felt really good playing (and appropriately scary playing against). Not saying this is what CB should do, but I felt like it's a direction many Ariadna profiles could go without making the faction op.
Sorry, but you are comparing apples and oranges. There are camo models and there are camo models. Dailamies got a Panzerfaust and cost 8 Points! They are an actual thread and top ARO-pieces. It's almost impossible to make a bad trade. And if the ARO fails and the target wins the f2f? Who cares? You lost 8 points and an irregular order. The only camo in Ariadna, that is an equal tread would be either the Tankhunter forward deployment with Panzerfaust, the Tankhunter Missile Launcher or the Tankhunter Autocannon. 25, 29 or 34 Points! And if the ARO fails, you lose almost 10% of your army value, and a regular order. I don't deny the power of camo plays. It's just that other factions do it much better, because they got actual threads under their camo tokens. And you know this, otherwise you would have chosen an Ariadnan Unit to prove your point, instead of Dailamies!
Kondkutors have Flamenspeer with camo and infiltration. All I can say is, if you don't like them now, move on. Easier said than done though. For a long time I wasn't happy with YJ. But I got lucky with an auction and got O-12 for a bargain and love them! Now I'm back to YJ for a while. IS anyway.
Hello again, I think exactly that is the point for the troupes limit, I remember to play a lot against 18-20 troupes on table plus 20 orders and a few ones more orders counting impetuous ones. Thinking I don't have enough orders for my active pieces to do real damage, or enough ARO, because when one template reached you, if you were lucky enough to survive, then you had to faced again same play, usually until they managed to succeed, then they still do a lot of things because almost no orders were waste. This was kind of frustrating while playing armies more narrowed to 10/15 orders... but that was back in N3... So N4 came and I still suffered the camo killing ARO pieces by template, most likely in Uxia form or SAS... when no hard aro remained, then others (bearpode or ranger) came. So, remembering how it works during N4 I don't believe it wasn't an issue about the number of orders or bodies, since it worked fine many times in N4. N5 has changed a little, due shotguns having anymore 2 templates but 1, but still pretty much same as N4. Templates could not be as dangerous as they were, but camo infiltrators with surprise attack are better now than they were back in N4, isn't this enough? I have the feeling, for how some of you talk about body spam, etc. that you are somehow more stuck on what it was Ariadna in N3, not even N4, than what is it in N5, complaining about what can't be done anymore instead to play by doing what can be done now. So is a long gap to save. My point here is to invite you to do an extra check, since I had my bad experiences being frustrated about some units or even factions, which I lead me to complain more than to find solutions to the game in motion. Maybe forgetting a little the past you could enjoy more the game now? To discover new ways to play? I mean, I knew many Ariadna/TAK players complaining about surprise attack not being useful because the SS on every ARO piece back in N4, so now that you have to face less SS in N5, isn't enough? Yes, of course a BlackAIR could be hard to deal with for Ariadna since it has MSV2 and avoid surprise attack, plus it has burst 2... but being camo should help you to avoid any LoF BlackAir could have... Could it happen tables that is impossible to avoid LoF? Yes, sadly yes. Still if you place the template over this extra powerful ARO profile is to a one guts roll to go. Well, I agree half with that, some new players suffers a lot against camo spam, others... god bless his ignorance, don't care, they will see what was under that camo marker... or not, later. I knew many top players who are worried about to face a camo spam when going to big tournaments, so they try to be prepare for that having MSV2 or even level 3 if they have it. And even when you more or less can know if that is a decoy or a mine, you can't, many times to go against it, because maybe the Ariadna player surprised you, or the mine can easily kill that specialist you need to push the button. Maybe here, in my case, is more that I use to play with LI and MI more than HI, I play many lists with 1 wound models, so a mine is a problem. Agree, game allow to play even with some weaknesses if table or/and initiative roll are favorable. I wonder about what particular actions do you have in mind? <<it is pretty much inarguable that other factions are just more likely to succeed at actions than Ariadna for their cost.>> I mean, I don´t see any other army playing "null deployment" and keeping a good order pool as good as Ariadna or TAK. Yes, maybe hassasin could do too null deployment, but it would be paying lack of orders. Hidden deployments can be avoid with cautious movement, for example. To shoot... Spetznats against many targets shoot exactly the same as a Swiss guard, on 15s. For example, chances to put down a level 2 bonus linked riotgirl with ML for an spetznat while going out of camo, are aprox 73% vs 20%... Others... I mean, they are too many things or factors you could think about, I want to know what are you thinking when saying what you said. @Jericho others already gave you Ariadna examples. I didn´t because I didn´t remember the exact names and it was easier for me to put an example with another unit, instead of going to the army an check. PS. Thanks to @RobertShepherd and @Rabble
Why we should? I entered the faction because of that thing. We are the underdogs, we dont have tech, but we are brave and we are more. Other factions received new playstyles, but keeping the original flavor of the faction. Meanwhile, Ariadna has been FORCED to try new things. You want Ariadna to behave in a total new way? OK. But dont name it Ariadna. That's is not the faction that existed since 2005 I tried Kosmo in N4, because i always wanted to use Margot and Duroc. I heavely dislike the sectorial. That was far off the faction identity and left almost no room for list making I will give N5 Ariadna an oportunity when CB decide to give back CHA and MRRF to the players. Im not into american/kossack Ariadna and i dont want to be into
Sorry it took me a while to get back to this! What I am referring to here is Ariadna's generally-lower "active" stats and lack of skills/equipment that can boost reliability in dice. Their BS is probably the worst in the game (with only Margot reaching BS14 last I checked), they tend to lack high-WIP scoring Specialists as well as almost totally lacking Hackers who get scoring bonuses in many missions, and their stats which are excellent (PH and ARM) are almost purely defensive, rarely improving your game state by themselves. The lack of MSV2 is just scratching the surface of Ariadna's numbers problem. While there are a few standouts, especially the Spetznaz, generally Ariadna shines best when using its good access to completely certain kit- Camoflage, Templates, and Total Immunity stacked with a few Wounds. As other factions gain more access to these tools, Ariadna loses its edge in terms of access and needs to count more on its other pieces to keep an advantage. Presently, ARM is too easily countered by... every ammunition type except N, and PH is underutilised, though handing out some more Grenades could go a ways to closing the gap. At present, these advantages are just too situational compared to, say, Haqq's high WIP or Nomads' soft board control.
Look I hate to repeat myself, but since you are arguing that ariadna is fine without playing it well I will try to explain it again. Spetsnaz is not being used becauss knauf has visor and bruant has infiltration. Since burnt state was removed from the game nothing else matters, or you have mimetism or a visor. Fire was good to make troops without those skills relevant. All the factions in the game have won stuff that made ariadna special to the point to erode the uniqueness of the faction and making other factions just better. Why CA should have acces to a 8 point double camo marker + dogged? Nobody liked the UR / Bear N4 era. You talk about spam as something brainless, while it was enjoyable for example with usarf where you had to be very smart with your troops to combine them and beat superior targets. Nobody is asking for 20 models in the table, not even 18. I don't like caledonia one bit but it had personality and made infinity more unique and distinct to other games in the market. Caledonia by design needed more than 15 models on the table just like usarf and that was fine, they had no more than 50% win ration during late n3. We need factions to feel as unique as caledonia felt compared with the others back then. 38 factions playing with 15 models is boring, specially now that everyone gets tools that made ariadna special while ariadna stays the same without all the tech and super strong troops. 16 models allows you to play 8+8 which is a very distinct play style that gives variety to the game. It's puzzling to hear that 16 is somehow spam and the devil incarnate, when factions that shouldn't be able to reach 15 models are getting 15 + extra orders. We don't want that tech or elite troops because then there is no point about playing ariadna. We don't want ariadna to be overpowered we want all factions to be distinct, balanced and with a proper theme. I love tak but vanilla has too many tak models. The loss of cha and mrrf was sad specially after years of no balance changes and neglect for mrrf. Kosmoflot was a good idea with a terrible execution. T2 is worse than DA. AP is way more common outside of ariadna. There is no ariadna without the 4 nations. Ariadna currently sucks at aro, in the past you could risk some aro pieces but now even the new vystrel doesn't cut it. Powercreep has made lots of troops irrelevant, for example scouts when other factions get hidden deployment mim -6 for the same price, even em minelayer 2 in case of haqqislam. Ariadna struggles with face to face rolls now because you are always one bad roll away to be in deep trouble, there is no safety net. Playing ariadna now feels like you always have less orders, less armour, worse melee, worse medics, less wounds, less tech while having the same amount of models on the table and no advantages. In short we are arguing that ariadna is less fun to play and also it feels less ariadna than ever. If people that have been playing the faction since n2 is talking about this, maybe something is not ok.
Again, @MATRAKA14 , you're treating your opinions as gospel, and I think that doesn't further the discussion. Isn't it at all possible that other people's perspectives and opinions have merit too? I understand your frustration, but putting your thoughts forward as if they were the only truth makes it much harder to engage with them.
Or you could stop treating that opinions as not valid, because is not what you want to hear. You think he is wrong? Bring evidences to the discussion 90% of the Ariadna players say is shit. 10 percent say is not bad. Lets focus on that 10%, because is what CB, moderators and non ariadna players want to hear. If Ariadna players cant express their throughts on this topic, why it exists in first place?
@burlesford isn't treating the opinion as invalid. He’s stating that the manner in which the opinion is being expressed isn’t furthering the conversation. @MATRAKA14 post came across as more abrasive and utilising their opinion as fact in this case than other posts did. That’s all. There was no inference made by burlesford that opinions couldn’t nor shouldn’t be expressed. Indeed the statement implied that all opinions were of equal value. I’ve been watching this thread for a while. It’s had some very good discussions. I would agree with a wide variety of issues raised by @MATRAKA14 and others as it appears a large enough number agree that Ariadna is in need of some help and as the age old saying goes; there’s no smoke without fire. I will also agree with the assertions of other players; that Ariadna is at times a difficult opponent (which is a good thing). I will stipulate here that I have no idea about N5 performance (see below). @Urobros made some excellent points in their posts too and the discussion they’ve had so far with @SpectralOwl is excellent and displays their agreements and disagreements in good faith. I personally have no skin in the game. No horse in this race. I haven’t played a single game of N5. My player group were so salty about the removal and change of their factions they abandoned it altogether. I played USARF in N4 and MRRF were one of my favourites throughout N3. I can conclusively give my opinions on how those factions performed in those editions of the game. I cannot give any opinion on how Ariadna may be running in N5 and I wouldn’t. That being said I think the issue the thread is having is that people are arguing past each other. There’s a lot of emotion evident in some of these posts which only goes to show how passionate players feel about the situation. As I mentioned, a large number of players appear to feel that there is a problem with Ariadna. The existence of this thread alone displays that and the argument that the army doesn’t work well is clear. For others, they argue that the army does work well, that they’ve had difficulty playing against Ariadna in their meta, and the army (at least one sectorial) is great. All these opinions and experiences have merit. All should be discussed. Unfortunately it’s the emotion that’s getting in the way. For example when a case is made for Ariadna to have more orders available to them than other factions, all some players may see is that there’s a request to return to the days when there were massive order groups allowing people to Rambo up units. It’s not what is meant but it can be what it comes across as. Other arguments for how rules work or are meant to work are similarly missed. I get the frustration on the side of those who don’t feel Ariadna is viable. It can be infuriating when an army you’ve loved ceases to work well. Especially when you’ve been so invested in it. Unfortunately it’s the frustration that’s causing people to miss the point of the statements that are being put forward. I have argued extensively for faction identity in the past. Giving Ariadna a new identity by giving them a completely different feel to other armies (in the manner of their order pool), would not be something I would necessarily argue against. Unfortunately what I may like to see in relevance to any faction identity may well have to wait until N6 or longer… Other times here there are suggestions made based on personal feelings rather than what may actually be affecting Ariadna and this too creates the issue where people argue past one another instead of discussing the issue at hand. TL:DR interesting points being made by a wide variety of people. I look forward to further conversation and I’ll hope it remains (at least relatively) civil. I will keep my fingers crossed for those wishing for faction identity and plead that it becomes the case across the game. Regardless of whether or not I ever play it again.
Thank you @Gwynbleidd fir for those well-put thoughts. Just want to emphasize what you said about my previous post: Not trying to invalidate anyone's opinions here, @fari, just saying that phrasing your own opinions as fact doesn't help the discussion.
English is not my first lenguage and its my way to whrite, every post I make old or new is just my opinion and should be understood as such. Even then I have made an effort to explain each point and I'm open to expand any of those and I have also made sure to present data and evidences to prove my points. And yes its frustrating to receive coments like, if you dont like it move on, or seeing how the feedback of the players can be considered invalid or negative after presentig an extensive ammount of points and data. Taking the time to post all of this is just not worth it and even then I do it because many old ariadna players have just abandoned the game and its my way to pay back after 16 or so years of having fun with it.
