This is not what I said or what the data say. Regardless. Extra bodies that add orders is not the same with the same trooper giving more orders, tactical awareness is a more restrained and curated order spam, more importantly the death of the trooper removes two (or really 1,5) orders and the trooper cannot draw a second ARO by just been there. In any case as @A Mão Esquerda said above the decision was made to stop hordes armies and put a cap on the model count, what Ariadna players should consider is not how to break the hard limits of the game and how to play a different game than everybody else, but how they can best fit inside the games parameters while retaining their flavor, style and character. Bingo, I am waiting for suggestions on how they could be modified to work on the 15 orders count gameplay.
We told you several times. Asimetrical warfare, but you are insisting in harmony and simetry. We are behind in tech. We are behind in skills. And now we dont have the numbers. What do you think Ariadna needs?? I keep playing in N4 with the 15 limit cap because CHA was still playable and they are my favorite army. Now that they have dissapeared and Ariadna is losing identity and with everything leanin toward kossak Ariadna, i dont think im interested anymore
Model cap is just another design space parameter; 10 models limited insertion (ought to) play fine, 15 models is the baseline to balance around, 16 or 17 models should be fine, especially in a faction with no apex monsters to abuse the orders.
Ok, lets try once more, because it feels like you are looking only for the feedback you like. It is ridiculous that the factions with the most expensive troops play with 15 models and thats ok but one single extra model (16) is considered horde while those same elite factions can play with 15 + extra orders. 38 factions playing the same with 15 models is ridiculous, it's the most boring and stale the game has ever been, and on top of that some are clearly better than others. 16 models is a way better cap than 15 it adds value because it allows you to play 8+8 which is a very different play style that was fun for some factions like ariadna. Elite factions should feel cool, strong and balanced with 10 or 12 models and struggle hard to field more models than that. Netrods were a mistake. Burnt state was fantastic because it was a very risky counter for mimetism for low tech factions, it felt asimetric which is what we are looking for. Additionally encourages troop combination instead of just trying to win stright face to face rolls with troops with visor+gun like now. See how, sadly, knauf is the strongest ariadna profile because it has mimetism + visor + a good gun. It is a very good way to not add more visors in to low tech factions. If it ever comes back, it doesn't need to be a copy of the N3 rule it could be simplyfied and affect mim -3 too, or delete the camo token interaction part of the rule. I can't see how this can't be in the game while we still have the shasvasti rule in the rulebook. Since the crit change, T2 is the poorsman version of DA, it's inferior and doesn't feel powerful, realiable or worth the cost. Ariadna is currently outclassed on all fronts, it was one of the factions with the most efficient troops those profiles have not changed much but the powercreep has advanced enough to make ariadna fall behind. I personally feel the other factions should be the ones to tone down to ariadna levels since I strongly feel that it would be better for the game compared to just buf ariadna but I know thats not going to happen. Ariadna doesn't have the best camo troops, in fact for the price of a scout there are factions fielding mim-6 e/m minelayer 2 troops with better kits now. Ariadna is not good at melee now. Ariadna is quite bad at face to face rolls now, its incredible to see how the spetsnaz one of the strongest face to face troops has been outclassed and now its not being played anymore in favor of knauf and bruant, which are still inadequate. Ariadna always has less wounds and orders on the table. Ariadna reactive turn is non existent, your only hope is the e/m mine and vystrel which are so inadequate that most of the time it's better to not field them and use all the points for ofensive options and hope to get first turn. We can't rely on chasseurs shenanigans anymore, which even if it's ok that those are gone they were one of the backbones of ariadna defense. Ariadna can't trade now. Some units don't work because they were designed to be equivalent in group to one expensive troop and that was distinct and fun, for example a specialist, a flammer and a visorless gunner compared to a two wound gunner specialist or with visor or +1 order, that is fun asimetry. Tank hunters with big guns and ap mines are ridiculous why someone would ever discover a missile launcher tank hunter to set up an ap mine on top of a building in your deployment zone? Give them 10cm advanced deployment instead or make those cheaper. Margot and duroc having rear deployment is not a fun mechanic for the game. Ariadna feels like three different versions of TAK. Vanilla has too many tak profiles, I wish dinamos strelocks and ratniks were replaced with blackjacks maverics and more ava for foxtrots. Vanilla can field the right ammount of TAK profiles + the other good ariadna profiles making it just superior since link teams are not particularly great options either. TAK has a single msv1 on a expensive sniper that was designed for the n3 core link teams and now it feels very inadequate for the current rules of the game, it would be way less notorious if we could burn minetism. The veteran kazak with shotgun could work very well now that duos are good, I would like to see it come back. I very much miss the xvisor option for the veteran kazak. Konductors are volunters 2.0 The barsuk is a low punch to usarf grunts. The sniper spetsnaz has always struggled hard to find a role, I would love to see drastic changes to that profile. The sniper scout and the missile launcher tank hunter are too expensive and too mediocre to work as aro pieces. We can't aro with those models because with the 15 model cap loosing one of them hurts too much to be worth it. The bearpode was a mistake. Loup garous never got a replacement for their grenade launcher and stun grenades, now the game has way more non lethal options that could be added to those profiles like riot stopers. Briscards, the models with more ropes and climbing gear in the game, would be cooler with climbing plus. I really hope usarf doesn't become another flavourless 15 model sectorial that plays exactly like all the other 38. Back in the day during n3 it was on the weaker side but even if it played with more models it felt quite unique as the ariadna with armour, flammers and almost no mimetism. As mentioned knauf is the best gunner of ariadna and that feels deeply wrong. You don't sell the faction saying look this is ariadna our defining model is a promotional character sniper who has nothing to do with ariadna and it's only in the faction because it was added to mrrf to try make it suck less until it got deleted from the game. ITS exclussion zones negate one of the ariadna strongest pilars which are skirmishers but there are no such rules to negate the pilars of other factions in such a drastic way like no 1+ wound troops zones, no tac aware zone, no mim -6 zone, no armor 4+ zone, no hidden deployment zone etc. This kind of missions have allways felt like an added handicap that severally hurts ariadna more than other factions. Speedball is just not a good idea for competitive play. Expensive troops will always benefit way more than cheaper troops, the bonus don't have the same value for a ratnik compared with an avatar. Mercenaries feel bad because those should be sidegrades not must haves. Why should expensive armies like CA get access to a super optimized 8 points liberto with 2 camo tokens when those cheap tokes should be the flavour of other factions? Same logic applies for ariadna too. There, feedback of 16? or so years playing the game. If that is not valuable feedback then I now understand why this forum has lost so many great users.
I don't play Ariadna enough to comment on the validity of all of your points, but as far as providing valuable feedback goes, you would help your case a lot by formulating them as your opinions, not as facts. I personally broadly agree with most of what you're saying though.
It is not what feedback I like, 15 troopers is a hard design cap as is balance for 300 points and 1 SWC per 50 points. Asking for more troops is like asking for more SWC not tied to specific models and playing with more points in a standard game. What I asked is can you envision Ariadna in the same design parameters as everybody else, and if yes, in what way and how?
For example if what you want is more bodies, maybe troop types like Antipodes pack would be a solution.
See that's what is fundamentally wrong with infinity, you are looking for a simple solution to a complex problem and it never works. Year after year issue after issue: Mrrf was rubish during all the lifespan of the sectorial, just random mercs added and a kick forward hopping for the best. Same with N4, a couple of super powerful profiles like the bear and UR and hope the units designed for n3 work somehow. Same now, a total reaction and a new antipode and hope ariadna doesn't crumble during the reactive turn. Corvus belli doesn't seem to have the means or the will to make proper changes to all the factions, it always feels like we can only aford small bandaids and hope for the best. Ariadna can't work like other factions because the other factions are fundamentally better if played in the same way, thats the big point. Combined army has tech BUT Ariadna doesn't have tech BUT Pano doesn't have smoke BUT Those are the old cornerstones of design, the problem is that those have been so diluted that everyone can do everything and ariadna is the worst at it. Most factions can camo, all factions can have 15 models etc Why should CA have 15 models? Why shouldn't it have 12? At this point make one single faction for everyone there is no point on having 38. The fact that we are discussing this after so many years makes me loose all hope for the game. Do you truly belive that adding cheap good sincronized models is less harmful than a proper redesign or a change of the sacred 15 cap? Ok then the models with sync troops become mandatory on all lists, what happens if I can spam those? What happens with models that don't have them, are those just abandoned? Isn't it just another trap to your own system that you can add models without orders and models with multiple orders but one single extra model above the cap is the biggest taboo imaginable? Lets take combined army as an example, it has the same numbers as ariadna, it has all the tech available, it has good access to camo and almost all the skills of the game if not all, it has more wounds, more armour, more orders, what is the but now? It has everything compared to ariadna, which weak spot should it have? If you don't have an answer to that you can't find a solution for ariadna because with those parameters ariadna will always be worse playing against CA 1 to 1. One weakness is fundamentally the strength of another. If you don't have smoke I can have lots, if I can't have armor you can have lots. Do you want ariadna working with the same parameters as everyone else? Fine, start removing things of other factions like warbands, cheap templates, camos, decoys, skirmishers, autocannons, cheap orders, smoke, CC specialists, AP and T2 ammunition and rise prices for most troops for other factions.
Then, once more, with feeling, move on. CB has determined their game’s ideal format, the one they’ve designed and (imperfectly) balanced around is 300pts, 6SWC, and 15 Troopers. Find a way to work within that space.
I know. And thats because the actual Ariadna is nothing related to the OG faction, so CB would fix it or kill it. As you say, this mode is imperfect. So there is room for improve. Also, why an hexaedron officer is talking here? You want us to underperform so PanO supremacy is not endangered in the future? Could be nice. As i said before, with the 15 troops cap and other desing decisions, Infinity is heading to the state where every army is just the same, but painted in different colors. Ariadna needs a TOTAL REWORK. Almost all the ariadnan troops didnt change since N3, but the playstile of the faction is not the same. Ariadna needs what CB did with Shasvastii. Dissapear for years, work hard on the faction to fix it. CB killed half of the faction, and the most loved and charismatic parts. I dont care at this point if the entire Ariadna is vanished. Is not Ariadna anymore
I do have to say, I'm a bit biased myself in that MRRF and CHA were the aspects of Ariadna that I thought and still think are the most appealing to me, so there's a bit of hurt weighing in on my next point. But it's doubly frustrating to see Ariadna's presence in Infinity being dominated by Russian and American factions (to the point of the elimination of the alternatives) in light of the current real-world political situation where I really don't want to represent them.
I don't think I've ever felt so thunderously aroused after reading something off the internet. Good God, yes please. Take Equipe Argent and the remains of Caledonia off of Kosmo's aborted corpse, and repurpose them in a faction where they might have some sense of identity. Just another friendly reminder for everyone that the HMG Caledonian Mormaer is still in production, despite his only army having been killed off more than half a year ago now. Do right by him, CB.
Siigh, why is your solution to everything "throw them to the MERCS" why can't you be more creative like asking "Maybe Generic Ariadna should be designed around Ariadna Expeditionary Force?" for example? To be honest I am kind of disappointed by the replies, negativity aside, you seem to be head locked to "Asymmetrical warfare" meaning hordes of underequipped and under trained soldiers swarming few elite soldiers, when it is so much more, why cannot Ariadna also be the 10 troops faction, veteran troops with great survival and combat training armed to the teeth wreaking havoc commando style raid? why Ariadna cannot be the survivalist faction that has the resilience Aleph had in N3? why must we have a mindset stuck in hordes and nothing more? You can have an Ariadna force that is true to the fluff, has asymmetrical warfare elements, be in par with the rest of the factions and still conform to the general design rules the game has, but to do so you must start thinking outside of the box, outside of the only way Ariadna can play is two (or three) full combat groups.
1.) People hate change. 2.) Hobby lag is real; people are going to be ticked if they can't use half the Line Kazaks they spent a year painting. 3.) One of the biggest complaints about Infinity in general right now is that the factions aren't different enough, and only maybe Haqq really has "horde" pedigree to match Ariadna while "durability" has Yu Jing, ALEPH, CA, and any Mercenary Character released in the last four years. 4.) See point 1 again, it's a big deal. Addressing this concern in a more serious light; honestly, it's not a bad call, but like everything else it's ultimately down to CB's ability to implement changes in a satisfying, balanced and clear way. If Ariadna's being rebuilt to play an elite durability game, it must not only follow the lore but stick out noticeably from other factions with that gimmick- it's not impossible, but it's a lot harder than sticking to its original niche, especially without disappointing fans of the original product. If CB want to push hard towards "no hordes, small lists" as a general strategy going forward, then Ariadna (and other factions) need more truly unique equipment, skills and combinations of the two to distinguish themselves from the competition. NWI and a Rifle won't cut it. You'd need the level of care and custom equipment that goes into Combined Army sectorials, gamewide. If this can be pulled off well, it could extend the lifespan of the system and make it a lot of fun and easier to pick up at the competitive level, while making it even harder to master. If it's messed up, you get every faction looking the same while also having balance issues and nigh-unsolvable gearchecks.
Please no more NA2 Frankensteins. An aleph player frustrated because ariadna doesn't want to become more like aleph. Now that is what I call lore acurate. You just don't get it, ariadna profiles are not undertrained, they are the best at doing their job. The troops are not super multirole like aleph ones and above all they punch above their weight class, it's the spirit of the faction, maybe I don't have hidden deployment, multiple wounds, visors etc but your super center piece model will blow up in to pieces after getting cornered by those apparently unadvanced troops and getting shot by my primitive but efective autocannon. We are big game hunters and the troop style you are envision for ariadna are the ones we like in the menu. Aleph and ariadna are and always should be pole opposites. It's a hide and seek mentality, to play ariadna you must hide because the other fish are bigger than you, but to play ariadna you must be able to hit hard like a truck under the right conditions. You don't go upfront against the most advanced tech in the human sphere, you play tricks around it until the time is right and then you blow it up in the most spectacular way. That doesn't require expendeable troops, or necessary casualties but it often requires to have a slight number advantage because you will need the orders to move more troops. It's like Van Zan hunting dragons in the reign of fire, they don't do it with one man army, they plant beacons to triangulate the location, they have paratroopers jumping from an helicopter, they are regular unaugmented humans and they have a plan. Ariadna has a plan because we are the underdogs. Ariadna was quite playable with 10 models during n3 not great but enjoyable at least. We can't now because factions that play with 10 models in n5 do so with 14 or 15 orders. If ariadna tries to copy that with a decent list it gets one extra order and starts the game with 9, even less if you get a paratrooper.
