or they are the better asassins. They left Ariadna in so bad condition that no one is playing the faction, so they can claim "the players killed ariadna by not playing, is not our fault"
There's been some talk about Ariadna being worst faction of the game, so, while I'm not an "expert" I went to Army to see myself. While I did indeed feel that there was certain type of lack of choices (not much NCO, Tac Aware, Visors, E/M, for example), nonetheless they are present and camo + infiltration are as good as ever. It seems to me Urobros has explained the situation quite well and his list seems good in my eyes. It would appear Ariadna still has tools to play the game, although maybe it is hard to make multiple different type of lists(?), imo you can still play Ariadna and complete most of the missions more or less. This seems bit of a classic scenario of "X" is nerfed, but is "more of the same" without new outstanding additions, thus perception from legacy players becomes almost naturally negative, while those who look with fresh eyes do not perceive it the same way. This in part possibly explains the lack of Ariadna from tournaments, some other factions got shiny new stuff so it feels more appealing to gravitate into that direction. If you want to play Ariadna, surely you can, and surely you can win too, although some match-ups may be bit of a uphill battle. Ariadna can still bring a sea of infiltration + camo tokens and most armies cannot trivially remove them. I must however say that troopers under camo are often not terribly scary (and E/M mines not plentiful) and Ariadna may have to use coordinated orders, or melee, or some other tricks with some of the tougher targets present in game. Something should probably indeed be given to Ariadna to bring more versatility to their gameplay, to make it more fun, but it should also be done while acknowledging the amount of infiltration and camo they have.
...yeah, that list Uroboros posted crumples hard to any good assassination run. And GML obviously savages it. The overall firepower and consistency in those firepieces is not impressive, either. If you want to talk about competitive viability in Ariadna lists in N5, speaking from experience, that ain't it.
What kind of Firepower do you need? I mean, today I played against a hassasin with one HMG on a Govad and AP Markasmanrifle as firepower... It was Ok to me. Even I could said I have one extra shooter having an AP spitifire in my list. GML... do you mean guided missile ? Not worse than N4... I mean, in N5 GML is less effective and less seen on board, so, don´t think so. I think we don´t have same idea of what a competitive list is.
With that lack of firepower you're one bad roll away from being tabled by a tag. If you're aiming for the top tables you need at least a big gun, a backup big gun and a big game hunting strategy (be that hacking/missiles/CC) to give you redundancy. If I went against a list that only had one HMG, guess where jaan star is going on order one, turn one? Guess where the pitcher/fast panda goes on order one? You get the idea....
Infinity's structure keeps it well-balanced by default, but I at least think if you can't fit an answer to every threat in a list so you can tailor your lists to the mission rather than the opponent, you're playing at a disadvantage. My last serious competitive run was in early N4, but ITS basic structure hasn't changed, and I know my NCA- while fielding powerful lists anyway- wasn't as potent as Ariadna or Nomads at the time since I had to make sure both my lists had the coverage to complete all tournament scenarios, as the Sectorial's pronounced Hacking weakness required me to prepare a separate list against Nomads, CA, ALEPH and certain Haqq players. Since this meant I was duplicating expensive and rather useless situational Specialists instead of combat units, I really felt the pinch on points and it often felt like I was fighting with less real pieces.
Well... Redundancy? I have it in the list I paste: HMG as plan A/B, AP Spitfire as plan B/A, two HRL as plan C and D... Even I can go to CC with the bearpode and the kibervolk. I have there much more alternative plans than in any panoceanian list I could play back in N5 Big gun? I wonder what your concept of big gun ist, I can assume something with high ARM, at least 2 wounds and high BS? So, you are talking about TAGs, Sepulcre, YanHuos, etc. Not all armies have this kind of profiles, even if you do so, not all armies can give those profiles good coverage, so they aren´t worthy of to be include, more disadvantages than vantages. Not all armies can play well to GML or CC... so, with those parameters we would be not only talking about Ariadna, but many others... The funny thing here is Ariadna has the capability to deploy lists that, precisely make so good counter of those big guns, that CC or that GML, only because they can put on the table so many camo markers, which need to be discovered first... so the big gun is only one dice roll away to do nothing. About Jaan Start going close to my only HMG... I'm thinking about it... I reminder you I just left 2 miniatures for last step of deployment phase, so most likely my HMG wasn't even close to your Jaan Start, neither my Lt... so, good luck running the battlefield... It could even happen Jaan Start were trapped between a decoy and an em-mine, since I deploy the HMG that someone is so eager to reach with the impersonator... I don't try to sound cocky, or ironic... I'm trying to bring you some perspective because I think, in general people is seeing problems because when they already left the tunnel behind... still they are seeing the darkness and the light is too far away yet. I mean, to focused on the issues or "the weakness" without even to think what can be done to "avoid that in game". I think this example is quite illustrative. To the people so scary about GML... For example, let's go to my list against GML, let's assume I'm second player, opponent doesn't have counterinteligence, and has 14 regular orders +1 NCO on the table, 9 and 5+nco, second group with GML. I took 1 order of every group... so 8 and 4+1. Pitcher close to the ratnik is one order, let's say I left somebody looking for the best spot to go over the corner and land that pitcher, not so weird situation. So, 1 order to get into position, 1 order to shoot the pitcher, let's say on 12 with +1DE, which makes aprox 84% to place it in the right spot with the first order, good chances to be at first try, so 2 orders right now, then, try to do spotlight to the ratnik, a VOL 14 hacker has 65% to do nothing, so let's assume 2 extra orders (being generous) . 4 orders left for the first group... Then GML shoot, second wound against the ratnik is around 43%, let's say GML need one more extra order to completely erase the ratnik. So 4 orders left on the first group, 2+nco in the second. In a no so extreme dice situation: to take 1 troup, the ratnik, enemy have spend 6 orders of 12... Yes, it could try now to put down my Lt, since is quite obvious, but he can't be sure I don't have CoC, since I have 5 camos on the table. So, if he tried he will expend the rest of the turn. If success, I will have a set back, but still 4 tokens with I can do a few things. If he fails most likely he would have done nothing with the first turn... (image for spotlight with a regular VOL14 hacker against Ratnik). Calculator, of course is only a tool, and dice rolls we all know how weird sometimes are, but this goes in both sides, so I think my point is still valid. I really agree with this "Infinity's structure keeps it well-balanced by default, but I at least think if you can't fit an answer to every threat in a list so you can tailor your lists to the mission rather than the opponent, you're playing at a disadvantage.", for me it was always one of my complaints or arguments while talking about which armies were the best and which ones wasn't, since not all armies can with 2 list be prepared for 3/5 missions requirements, plus to deal against table/opponent uncertainty; which others armies can easily deal with. Some even with one list (CA or SSA in N4 version). Thing is, of course Ariadna miss a few things: normal HI with 2 wounds, not so sure this a problem having things like the Ratnik, and may hackers options, which is a problem while playing Highly Classified (but I see so many Ariadna players winning this mission by killing so much that didn't matter if they could do only 2 cards... so I'm not sure they have problems with this mission)... to stop heavy targets like HI, TAGs, REMS... Ariadna has others tools, even better, "a lot of camos", a lot of AP/T2 weapons... even EM ammo as mines (which could be garbage if you only place 2 camos on the table, but not when you can easily place a lot...) plus some expendable troupes than can deal with heavy targets if they reach CC, which isn't so strange I think. I will keep playing Ariadna a little more, to understand the changes, then I will move a little over Kosmo and TAK. But right now I'm on the side that Ariadna is in a good spot as many others armies. Sadly, USARF I don't have doubts it needs some love. Keep sharing. Best regards!
Back from the ITC in Germany. I had the chance to play against one of the two Ariadna players, that visited this tournament. (One TAK, one Vanilla) I played against Vanilla, the mission was Frostbyte. It was just sad. An absolute slaughterfest. It endet 10:0 for me with only a Traktor Mule left on the Ariadnan side. I don't think that my opponent did any great mistakes, but his units seemed just so helpless. I got a counter against anything he got, and in retaliation I got some pieces that he just got nothing to handle. I don't get his whole list, bust here are some core pieces: Voronin as LT Mirage 5 Bruant AP Spitfire Cateran T2 Scout AP Sniper Veteran Kazak AP HMG in a link with two Frontoviks Here's my list for this mission: Frostbyte ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 9 RAVENEYE (Lieutenant) Submachine Gun, E/Marat, Flash Pulse, E/M Mine / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12) CYBERGHOSTS (Hacker, Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 21) LYNX MULTI Sniper Rifle, Shock Mine / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 31) NIMROD FTO Thunderbolt(+1B), Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 28) STORMBOT Heavy Rocket Launcher(+1B), Pulzar / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 31) LAMBDA (Engineer, Deactivator) Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 16) YUDBOT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) KYTTÄ Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) FUZZBOT (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 14) MENT Heavy Riotstopper(+2B) / Assault Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 15) GROUP 2 6 1 1 RAPTOR (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, E/Mitter ( ) / Boarding Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 41) DEVABOT Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 5) ROADBOT (Paramedic) Submachine Gun, Panzerfaust, Heavy Riotstopper ( | MediKit) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 20) OKO (Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 18) MOONRAKER (Minelayer) Heavy Shotgun, Adhesive Launcher Rifle, Shock Mine / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15) MOONRAKER (Minelayer) Heavy Shotgun, Adhesive Launcher Rifle, Shock Mine / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15) VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain-colt(+1B), Smoke Grenades / Heavy Pistol, AP CC Weapon(PS=6). (0 | 13) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army I only lost the Raveneye, the Cyberghost and the Varangian to Mirage 5. That's it. No more casualties. The Roadbot-Oko Duo and the Nimrod took the right flank and wiped everything off the board, while his Vet.Kazak was pinned down by my Stormbot and the Lynx, until the Roadbot killed him from behind. The Stormbot killed Mirage 5 and the rest of his army was wiped out by just three models.
I'm still a TAK enthusiast (I started playing near the end of N4) mostly for the aesthetics. I love Ariadna's models, they hooked me and brought me from 40K to Infinity. Speaking of the games I've had so far, I always have the impression that everything my list does, my opponent does better and at a lower cost. Yes, you can spread several camouflage markers around the table, but a slightly more experienced opponent can easily get around your minefield; you can, in TAK, have many pieces with mimetism, but the abundance of visors reduces this to a mere inconvenience; a piece that was central to my lists in N4, the Dogwarrior, in the games I've played in this new edition it simply doesn't seem to be working; and finally, our fragile soldiers can't THINK about losing an ftf or they simply fall unconscious. It's very frustrating and I really can't see what can be done to solve this situation without taking away the characteristic style of the faction.
Oh there are some options to boost TAK without loosing the factions style. CB should focus on the former strenghts of the faction. Why the heck did THE guerilla faction not get Minelayer (2)??? Why no hidden deployment? Ariadna was always the faction with squishy cheap troups. But so they could outnumber the enemy. More wounds, more orders. Now there is the 15 models limit, that some factions easy can cheat for more wounds: Aleph: Posthumans Nomads: Bakunin Überfallkomando Nomads: Puppetactica HI with 2 Vita More orders or order efficency thanks to Tactical Awareness, NCO, Strategos in Combination with LT +1 Order, etc. Why no Tactical Awareness for Spetznas? Or Veteran Kazaks? Why no teams as one unit for make up for the missing Vitas? Instead buying every Dynamo seperately just buy one with up to two buddies as "Dynamo Squad". Only one of them provides order, maybe one regular order plus one Tac Aware for the whole squad. Welcome the Kuryer Batterie. 1 Dozer with up to three Muls or Kuryers where only the Dozer provides a regular Order and one Tac Aware. That's no new idea, look at Überfallkommando, Posthumans, etc.
Therein lies the issue. TAK was NEVER "the faction's style". Their insistence on cramming TAK in as "The Faction" is what led us to where we are now with Ariadna. Each facet of Ariadna was supposed to have a unique element to it. Merovingians were heavy on the sneakin' & dirty tricks playstyle, Caledonians were supposed to be heavy on the CC side of things, USARF was originally billed as the "technological" side of the faction, and TAK was supposed to be the "jack of all trades, master of nyet". Because the developers do not and have not ever known what they're doing.
What do y'all want to bet that Ariadna gets some seriously good updating in the next three release cycles? We know USARF is going to get an update soon (tm). And I have a feeling that MRRF are coming back, given the recent Reinforcements sculpts etc. All is not lost. The faction's at a nadir, which sucks. But given the pleasantly (and surprisingly) thorough update/fix which N's core rules just got, it seems like the same sort of thoroughness is likely to be applied to the most-neglected faction first.
@Jericho that's a good idea- using multiple bodies/troop slot to get more Wounds into TAK, leaning towards horde-style play. If it can be done without slowing things down much that is. Which is why this is a great idea: A more static unit like that would play well with multi-body-one-slot mechanics. You wouldn't be moving it around a lot. And the cheap tanks would be really unique among the multi-body troops throughout Infinity. Cool idea!
Ariadna is so bad now that when USARF get their rework in the future, with some little tweaks, it will look like an enormous improve, when the truth is that we'll never recover our former glory. CB MUST find a way to return the faction to the "we dont have tech, but we are more" state in the actual game. Playing against the hyperpowers with their own rules is not working. Ariadnans always used their own rules to face the hyper powers and get the victory. We need to go back to that.
Well, frostbyte isn't the best for Ariadna, unless they choose to play with a particular style. Thanks for sharing. I think experiences playing against Ariadna could be indeed useful. I'm waiting to see the global numbers of the German tournament. I thought it was only one TAK player, no more Ariadna ones. So, the data I knew weren't accurate enough. I know that feeling about the rival having "cheaper" and "better options". Isn't good. I guess is what a Nomad player, or anyone, too focused on hacking, when facing Ariadna, where pretty much "nothing is hackable". I don't have the numbers to have a comparison between N5 and N4 number of visors, but I don't think that we have too many more now. Not when albedo is on the table now more common. I knew a lot of people who isn't trusting in mvl1,2,3 as they did, but camo is a so powerful tool, unless we face a MV3, trooper has to roll a dice to shoot. That possibility is really, really powerful, more if you are facing so many camos that you can't have a clear guess on what is decoy, mine or troop. Ok, a visor is terrible, but if fails the roll, can't keep trying on that camo. That means, to expose a non visor, or to rotate the troupes, or to ignore the camo, which in the end, will force the other player to move, wait for what that non revealed camo will do, then keep moving to get outside LoF to start again with the "discover+BS", or if he feel lucky, tri to force 2 camo markers leaving the state to ARO, then to split the burst. This binary way of working for camo state is what does camo spam so powerful, even if now they are only 15 troups on the table. Of course, being that binary will make you think is too weak if yours are easily discovered, or the opposite if you fail too many discover rolls. So, I think we are somehow in between. To make rival to "roll discover" is what makes dailamys so good, even when they don't have mimetism. And you can't disguise then as other many things... A few things sounds good. I hope you have right on that, but I will not be too confident, since they launch new minis to remove the sectorial from game... Ok... In this point I have to say I remember many people when N4 was released complaining about Ariadna being already killed because "the maximum troupes number", but later it wasn't the case. Ariadna wasn't dead, but really alive and powerful, at least vanilla and kosmo. Even Merovingia was more than playable until they changed the FT rules when N4 came... Usariadna had some moments, with rules for motorbikes making some models really good at least during some time, and yes... Caledonian were having a bad time in N4. For some missions they still could do some things, but too many bad pairings... What I'm trying to say is we are repeating patterns here. Ariadna is the factions which can align more profiles capable of surprise attack, are we forgetting now that not too many models can ignore this minus -3... Speznat was called garbage for this reason, many units being able to ignore the surprise attack. What happen now? Why isn't he coming back? Yes, it is a little expensive, yes, it has only one wound, but.. now ARO isn't as deadly as before, only one impact can be done, so chances to get only unconscious are higher, so doctors or speedballs can bring us a second chance to shoot... So, my truly point here, is I think once people properly realize what can be done in N5, instead of what could be done in N4, we will see more ariadna. I have a few Ariadna players around who have quit to play the faction, vanilla or kosmo, but were those who play double bear + unknow... but I have around others who didn't abuse too much of those profiles, or rotate armies, not only Ariadna in N4, that now are playing Ariadna, and doing it well in tournaments, even they are happy. I don't try to deny some improvement could be done, or the needs to some adjustments, but to encourage you to see the glass half full instead of half empty. Since my experience is being like that and thinking on the past is what already happened. No need to disqualified or minimize Ariadna players. That doesn't help anybody, and this kind of jokes can easily be misunderstood.
And it was. Ariadna player numbers dropped significantly, and their representation in big tournaments, and Kosmoflot was largely played only because was the "new thing" (and the OP bear and Volkolak+cheerleaders fireteam). And it was proven correct. Playing with the same limits but not the same tools made Ariadna underperform during the whole edition. And now is even worse clearly not an Ariadna player. Please go out and let us grieve
You are - beyond doubt - right about that. At the same time, man, when I see the tone of some of the posts in this topic, I have to really hold my reins tight.
I 99% agree with everything @Urobros has written (except I think that camo swarm and EM mine are not as useful to stop an heavy infantry in the hand of a good play who ignores the camo and go straight at you revealed pieces. At some you have to reveal stuff to aro and get killed). Very interesting list by the way. Ariadna is poor of new shiny toys with N5, except for one big exception called vystrel, but not dead. Already said what I think of the faction earlier. I played mostly Ariadna so far and get my usual, rather positive, victory ratio. Even placed 3rd with TAK at a 16 players 3 games local tournament. Here is some exemple of list I played : With TAK: gTEHdGFydGFyeQdKRkogMS4xgSwCAQAKAYRwAQgAAoMAAQIAA4DjAQEABIDjAQEABYDzAQEABoDlAQQAB4DlAQEACIDnAQIACYRmAQcACoRmAQcAAgAGAYRuAZBTAAKEbgGQVgADhzYBAwAEhfQBAgAFgPABAgAGhi0BAQA%3D With Ariadna: gS0HYXJpYWRuYQ3DiXZhY3VhdGlvbiAxgSwCAQAJAYEHAQIAAoEGAQIAA4DlAQEABIOrAQEABYEBAQEABoDjAQgAB4DjAQEACIRmAQcACYEHAQIAAgAHAYDwAQIAAoYtAQEAA4c2AQMABIRuAZBWAAWEbgGQUwAGgPwBBAAHgPwBBAA%3D If it can help some of you to find ideas
Unfortunately I think CB puts too much faith in data from ITS and it's going to take them seeing nobody taking Ariadna or loosing all of the time. Which means it's going to take a long time to get changed. I don't think they play their own game or they don't play it like us. Otherwise they would see problems a lot sooner.
