The 15-model limit made sense when Tactical Awareness was relatively rare, now where it's common it's a problem that allows one to make some truly absurd lists. I made this list just to demonstrate the concept and the list is effective as well and I'm sure it can be optimised further if desired ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 6 DR. HARPER FTO Plasma Carbine, Nanopulser, E/M Mine / Viral Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (+1 | 32) PATHFINDER DRONBOT (Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 17) BIPANDRA (Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser ( | MediKit [+1B]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25) SQUALO Mk-II (NCO) MULTI Heavy Machine Gun / MULTI Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon(PS=5). (1.5 | 66) CRABBOT . (0 | 2) BLADE FTO (Engineer) Submachine Gun, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Silenced Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23) MAXIMUS OPTIMATE (Lieutenant) Thunderbolt(+2B), E/M Carbine / Heavy Pistol, AP + DA CC Weapon(PS=4). (0 | 76) OPERATOR MAXIMUS Thunderbolt(+2B), E/M Carbine / Heavy Pistol, AP + DA CC Weapon(PS=6). (0 | 0) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) GROUP 2 2 FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) 1.5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army The list has 16 Orders + 1 Lt Order, 12 Regular + six Tactical Awareness and it can use the Lt Order as a regular Order since the Squalo MkII is NCO. There's an Engineer, a Doctor, and a Forward Observer + 1 Specialist Operative + one that can be deployed at will + that comes about if you hit the right number. It struggles a bit on Classified, depending on whether an ITS rule converts one of the Troop types into another. It can fight hard stuff due to the Squalo MkII with a Multi HMG, and the ThunderBolt on Maximus can make people really sorry. Harper can deal with things that are clumped up. Is the list unbeatable? No, every list is beatable and doing so depends on experience and use of models. It's unfair though and breaks an important spirit of the rules since you essentially break the 15-model limit by being above that in Orders by a good amount. To avoid that, my suggestion is to align the model cap with the "Limited Insertion 2.0" and say that your List can never total more than Regular Order + Irregular Order + Tactical Order = 15.
But... you only have 12 models in this list. Which is kinda undermining your whole point. If you were to show us a 15 model list with six TA orders I'd take the bait. This doesn't seem too crazy to me. Especially since seven of your orders are standard Fusiliers. The best I can come up with is something like this. 15 regular orders, 4 Tactical Awareness, 2 Lt orders+NCO for a total of 21 orders: gMwPaW52aW5jaWJsZS1hcm15AIEsAgEACgGAlgELAAJ%2FAQgAA4CLAQIABICLAQIABYTcAQQABoTeAQQAB4cxAQQACIcxAQIACYCiAQEACoCiAQEAAgAFAYTmAQYAAoTrAQQAA4CMAQIABICOAQEABYCOAQEA
Considering the mess mounted by the 10 "list orders", I can't imagine how it would be with this. Also, is not a problem a list with more than 20 bodies in less than 15 troops? No to mention turrets. I would be happy if a lock on how many turrets per deployer tops could be deployed at the same time, otherwise they can compound for a second/third turn kinda hard for the other player, unless Deactivator gets a buff to affect all deployables in ZoC...
As I said, I'm sure that people can optimise the list, it was the general concept that I wanted to show and that's how easy it is to go above the 15-Order limit that a 15-model limit army would normally be able to get. As Xagroth also points out I had never even considered that with Turrets you could easily end up way above the 15-model cap practically that the opponent has to chew through. Even though they're a fun thing from the perspective of the person planting them they cost at least 1 Order for the opponent to destroy and that'll hinder their plans in a big way I played a game in N4 under ITS where each person had a turret to place and my opponent got an incredibly lucky spot to place where it had great LoF. It was a nightmare. Advancing to their table edge would effectively only be half an order since I had to calculate in advance to have a Short Skill to counter it, and if it survived, or even worse, won then it was a major disrupter to my plan. I think it would help if a model with a Deactivator could shut it down, or if it was hackable, something, anything to stop a turret outside of shooting at it.
It is a difficult balance, tactical awareness is a more exclusive and captive order than irregular and loosing the model that has it is more impactful than loosing just an order.
While losing the model is more impactful, the models with TA are, with a few exceptions, really hard to shift and often have 2+ VITA/STR or NWI + Immunity (Shock). I think merely losing them is worse than also losing the TA that comes with them as the models are of fairly high quality. You can also get a lot of use out of them due to TA being changed from N4 to N5 to work on Fireteams. There's also that you can use an Order on them and STILL have the Order for another model as long as it was the TA one. This makes the army as a whole more versatile, a lot more versatile.
And those lists that try to max out TA and/or NCO end up mostly just being bad. Kill one guy and loose two orders. If they started handing out TA for little to no cost It would be bad but they haven’t. It’s usually on expensive troops. Also, I don’t think it’s been that bad. I play YJ and at most I get about 2 TA. I run out of points before I can take more. And sometimes 2 Lt. orders. I can’t say it’s having those that made my forces good. I also don’t see players jumping on those armies with lots of TA, NCO, etc. I’m the only YJ player right now in my area. I’ve seen a few Joans in vPO but no Wallace. A few are doing KCF.
While having an extra orders for few troopers is nice, it's not impacting the meta at the moment. What is impacting the meta is 8+8 troopers zooming across the field and free reloads for certain kind of deployables.
Peripherals. I can build Tunguska lists with 22 bodies but only 15 troopers: gfgIdHVuZ3Vza2EAgSwCAQANAYYcAQMAAoc%2BAQIAA4biAQMABIYOAQEABYGyAQkABoGXAQUAB4RKAQIACIRKAgMACYRKAgIACoRKAgIAC4c9AQMADIbTAQEADYGcAQEAAgAFAYRDAAEAAoGYAQIAA4bVAQEABIbTAQEABYGcAQEA
Models and Troopers are two different things though. Troopers generate Orders. At least you can hack most Peripherals out of existence. Would be nice if simply being synchronised would make you hackable.
My 17 order list (I never realy tried - with N5 its now 18!) - not bad for certain missions, but honestly usualy you make list for missions, not for orders ;-) TA has the big problem, that you loose two orders if the TA trooper goes down and - its its not evertime useful. In this example most of the troopers can make good use - the combi/multi does the moving, HMG/HRL the shooting ... in theory... 17 Order ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 5 KOKRAM FTO MULTI Rifle(PS=6), Chain-colt, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 35) SHÀNG JÍ AP Heavy Machine Gun ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Boarding Pistol, AP CC Weapon(PS=6). (1.5 | 45) SHÀNG JÍ (Forward Observer) MULTI Rifle, Flash Pulse / Boarding Pistol, AP CC Weapon(PS=6). (0 | 36) SHÀNG JÍ Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Boarding Pistol, AP CC Weapon(PS=6). (1.5 | 34) ZÚYǑNG (Tactical Awareness) Heavy Machine Gun / Breaker Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33) ZÚYǑNG (Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Breaker Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 27) RUI SHI (Multispectral Visor L2) Spitfire ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 23) PANGGULING (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 14) GŪDǍN (Camouflage [1 Use], Forward Deployment [+4"]) Submachine Gun, Zapper, Shock Mine / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12) Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 14) YÁOZĂO PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) GROUP 2 1 DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order]) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23) 6 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army Yu Jing # 1
I think I have said it several times, but I think null deployment is been penalized in this edition, probably for a good reason.
There is one doc and Krit has D-Charges. If you need a Hacker (I wouldn´t recommand the EVO for this task) maybe try to change Shang FO vs Hacker and change Rui vs Luan for free SWC. But yes this is what I mean - normaly you build for mission. IA indeed can add a lot of TA if they want and NCO / 2 x LTO is a default there.
Could you please give me a one example how null depo is penalized in N5 edition because I haven’t seen it. In my opinion 8+8 moving superjumpers while fast and very useful for wide variety of battlefield situations pale in comparison to N4 shotgun forks. Shotgun forks were the true counter to null deployment.
Just saying that Tariq has an AP Spitfire, a Heavy Pistol, and a Pulzar (+1B). That's as good a Shotgun fork as any.
