With the amount of shit and bile you constantly pour on other forum users i belive that even apologetic seppuku wouldn't cut it.
There, I fixed for you. And there is nothing to apologize about that :) No whiners (and I'm being kind using that word), no shit and bile.
Oh man, why do I even click on "show ignored content" from time to time? It's never worth it... @psychoticstorm , they're doing it again
Fari might not be the most pleasant person to communicate over the internet, but at this point I find the claim that CB needed few more months for N5 fairly uncontroversial and well-supported by circumstantial evidence. For one, it was Bostria, who played the demo game with "4.5 ruleset" and once mentioned that the designers would have wanted some more time. Indeed, we see why, even if we disregard the release date slipping twice. Compared to the very well-designed KFC units, the Japanese half of the operation box is rather bland outside of the hatamoto. Similarly considerable difference in effort can be noticed in the vanilla armies released so far. Haqq, with 3 sectorials, received a very well-thought and balanced list, while Aleph, with two sectorials, woke up with less units in vanilla than Tohaa. Speaking of Aleph, marketing failed to figure out that the betrayal of Achilles will be a fairly unpopular move and lead the promo campaign with drip marketing focused on that. This may indicate potential lack of time/resources/foresight for gathering focus groups or other types of market research that would have revealed that. The N5 book, gorgeous as it is, also shows signs of rushing, for example in the lack of proofreading. Heck, what seems to be a rather glaring mistake can be seen even on the back cover. So yeah, I really don't understand why is this such a point of contention. On one hand, we have a lot signs for it, on the other - it really does not matter too much for anything. I mean, event organizers surely don't like what is going on too much, and I understand them, but for everyone else, this brings little inconvenience. We have a fully functional ruleset, that is in some aspects, more complete than what N5 will be on launch.
From what I've been hearing around (from WarCors/the Discord) it's intended to effectively be a flashbang. The name also somewhat implies that, but of course until the rules officially drop it's not completely confirmed. The parts that ruffle my feathers are effectively twofold: First, the fluff not matching the rules, and Second, complexity creep. The first is going off the understanding that the Bangbomb is, if not a flashbang, some kind of equipment that actively interferes with the opponent's attack. Nanite cloud, Blinding Light, a sexy Hologram that pops-up MGS style, whatever. As the equipment interferes with the opponent's attack, it should apply a malus to the opponent, not the other way around. It's backwards of the way that it should be. Of course, it could be some other mechanism that actively helps the model dodge a targeted attack, but I struggle to come up with a justification that A: doesn't apply to Mines/Templates, and B: is not already in-use as a justification for models with Dodge (+X), like the Boyg. As I haven't seen a good justification for a bonus, and the justifications that I have seen point to a malus, this is one of the reasons I advocate for "Dodge (-3)." The second deals with game design, and is basically the idea that you want as few rules as possible. Fewer rules means fewer rules interactions, which reduces opportunities for cheating, lessens mistakes, and makes it easier to play. Now, this doesn't mean that you can't have niche situations or that you can't have unique rules, but it does mean that everything that is added needs to add to the game in a meaningful way. Whenever you add something to your game, whether it be a new rule, new unit, or a new faction, it is important to ask the questions "What does this do, what already does that, and is it different enough to warrant its inclusion?" If you don't, the resulting bloat will give even Veteran players headaches, and will inevitably result in unintended scenarios that produce undesirable outcomes or, in the worst case, completely brick the rules (as an Example: Warmachine Mk1, where two specific units with rules that let them make an attack after they died would cause the game to get stuck in an infinite loop). And this is, again, where the comparisons to Dodge (-3) come in; both Bangbomb (+4) and Dodge (-3) only work when you declare Dodge, both apply to incoming CC/BS Attacks, and both are ineffectual against Direct Templates, Mines, and Indirect Attacks. They are also statistically similar when plugged into a calculator, with one or the other being better depending on the opponent's Burst value. The biggest difference between the two is that the Bangbomb does not work against Impact Templates while Dodge (-3) does. This is an interesting difference, and one that stands to gain more relevance with the changes to Shotguns, but A: is inconsistent with the rest of the rules regarding Impact Templates (BS Attacks and Smoke grenades can cancel explosions) and B: not extremely relevant for the Ayyar, which has Surprise Attack (-6) on its AP Marksman Rifle (and thus will not be dodging in Active turn very often) alongside the relative rarity of Impact Templates being used as offensive weapons. Which brings us back to the second point. We know what it does (makes the model better at dodging when FtF against a BS/CC Attack). We know what already does that (Dodge (-3)). What remains is the third part of the question: is the difference between the Bangbomb and Dodge (-3) worth adding a brand new rule? What options for balancing does it open up? Does it introduce new strategies, or serve as a counter to old ones? Will the addition of this rule add to the experience of playing the game? In my opinion, it does not, and therefore should have instead been the already-existing rule that is far simpler: Dodge (-3). The fact that it applies vs. Hacking is another reason why I prefer Dodge (-3), but there's a decent chance that this is an unintended interaction. Exactly how this interaction got past the initial design phase when the most common ZoC attack in the game is hacking would be worrying, but then again CB is pretty well known for screwing up rules interactions (N3 "I shoot your back arc from the front", N4 Super-Jump not working, N4 Protheion not working, having TAGs bunny-hop to their death in N3...). I can see the design intent to give Dodge something to make it a better option when getting shot at (particularly in ARO), but the Bangbomb comes across as clunky and unnecessary to me. I'll admit my initial response wasn't the most polite, and I apologize for that, but your initial message made it very evident that you hadn't read my post. Bringing up +3 when the discussion over the last page has been mostly about -3, bringing up not being able to dodge templates as if its something I hadn't considered when in fact I started one of my paragraphs by stating that it was the biggest difference, and then you brought up the fluff when I'd spend yet another paragraph on discussing that very subject and why most of those fluff reasons were at odds with the rules as implemented. Not the sort of behavior expected from someone who had read the opposing arguments, and calling you out on it was not an act of hostility, even if it wasn't said with the most tact. Your choice to respond with scathing sarcasm does not make you seem like someone who wants to participate in a discussion or is interested in hearing the opposing viewpoints; rather, it makes you seem like a kid who's been caught doing something he shouldn't and has no better defense than to lash out. If you believe the Bangbomb is a good addition to the game and accurately reflects the fluff, then I'm more than happy to listen, and I'm more than happy to be convinced that I'm wrong. You could bring up how fluff and gameplay mechanics don't always match, that sometimes balance trumps realism, or a hundred other avenues of reasoning. Might be more productive than calling everyone who disagrees with you "whiners."
Is it really? Outside of these forums I mean... I'd say it's only unpopular for a minority of players (which I would probably be part of if I was playing Aleph and Achilles). People not playing it probably don't have a very strong feeling about this and CA players (which are probably the more numerous of all factions) are rather happy, or even super hyped seeing 5 formerly Aleph heroes joining the party. We're running in circles here. I deeply apologized for my reading/understanding mistake and I already explained why I'm just fine with bangbombs, from a gameplay point of view and from a fluff point of view. You're not? Fine, let's agree to disagree, repeating the same stuff again and again doesn't seem very useful, and I don't care much about proving people wrong, especially when it's just about opinions. We're discussing about if we like or not a specific rule, taken from an arbitrary bigger set of rules, using to play miniatures in a fictional universe. We're not debating flat earth VS round earth. P.S : I have no issue with people not agreeing with me, I'm only calling whiners whiners, and I didn't called you a whiner. But please, let's cut the hypocrisy and stop acting as if it was just about "disagreeing" rather than suffering constant negativity and toxicity about anything CB says or does. I think we're past from that and it's way too ubiquitous and acknowledged to be denied.
Thank you for your polite and well thought out response. For me, the large cut down if complexity in N3 to N4 was a little too much. I feel that mechanically, there should be a rule or item that improves your odds of dodging a non template weapon. My mindfluff is a nano swarm device that slows the bullets enough to make it easier for you to dodge the attack. It might even be integrated into their Holoprojector. It also just affects one roll versus dodge (-X) affects all rolls against it. I feel that this specific + bonus to dodge has a different feel to dodge (-X) and I like that CB wanted to add it. Ninjas needed something like this for awhile and I really hope they get it. Specifically, the Ayyar needed something like this. I think this is its third major profile change. It's a beautiful model that doesn't get alot of play as it has always felt overpriced for its offensive and defensive capabilities in Haqqislam. This finally gives it some needed durability and fits the fluff of an amazing, tricky lone agent.
@Delta57Dash I guess one cannot keep everybody happy, personally I think conditional dodge modifiers are an improvement.
Western culture adopted eastern public blaming practices very well, but forgot to do so about forgiving ritual. You are right, it is no measure, when it is enough of witchhunt. No sence in seppuku for now. For me... I am in waiting camp. We played "last N4 game" not long time ago with friends and here we are. Ready to play another one! Today. So, waiting in this case isn't damaging. But I really want to see sectorials already.
And this is one of the reasons I did not bought it. The books are getting more expensive every time and it looks like there is no money left for proof reading. I have to agree. It looks like an unneccessary addition. While it looks cool it could be solved more elegant with the dodge -3 and letting the unit fluff add the flavor. And I would like to see a general D+3 on all kind of Ninjas. A fluffy addition for Ninjas would a flashbang, that impose the TO state after a successful FtF. Sorry old habbits
CB could even make it more close mathematically by giving the Ayyar Doge (-4). If they don't want to be beholden to +/- 3s anymore, they should make use of that.
Then again, they wanted specifically "Dodge that doesn't apply to templates" for some reason we don't know. Is that adding complexity to the game? Certainly. Is that added complexity something the game needs? In my opinion, not at this exact point. We'll see. After all, we can't really do much about it.
Not exactly the same. By making it a positive, it doesn't gets limited by the +12/-12 limit. While on the Ayyar it might not be that relevant, I doubt (and certainly hope, since it is bad enough to add new gear with a subtle variation over existing skills) it won't be the only troop with the skill. Imagine a Myrmidon with gangbomb +3 instead of smoke, dodging from behind cover in bad range for the attacker would impose a -12 to the attacker and roll at PH+3, unless the attacker was using a chain rifle, in which case not only would all negatives be meaningless, the +3 to dodge from the gangbomb would not apply (since there is no FtF). Smoke grenades work like that against direct templates (tear shaped ones). The positive bonuses do not require FtF, but negatives only work in those situations (you can't impose a negative when there is no roll). I think this is some sort of simplification on the rules case and to cover for the strangeness of a model using the skill in total cover (there could be an artificial LdT due to, for example, sixth sense), maths-wise I think the biggest difference is how what is in conditions essentially a negative modifier gets applied as a positive (which are nearly impossible to top in a dodge, while the negatives to the attacker's roll are quite easy). Depending on the troops receiving it, this gear may become a stacking nightmare.
Smoke grenades / "smoke dodge" (as we've used to call it back in N3) has one giant difference here, though: it leaves a lasting effect (a Zero Visibility Zone). Obviously CB did not wanted to have that on Ayyar. Again, I can't claim I know what they wanted to achieve. We're seeing bits and pieces of the new rules, new units (or, in case of Ayyar, old but rewritten units) and new gear. But we can't forget it is a whole (eco?)system we're talking about. And we don't know how N5 ecosystem is going to tick.
I feel that CB has been acknowledging the importance of certain rules are to the game and how powerful they are. The two that immediately come to mind for me are Dodge modifiers and access to Smoke/Zero vis. We have been slowly seeing more armies and units get access to both of them over N4. More units are being incentivized to use Dodge with new rules and smoke access has increased. If Discoballer is what I hope it is, it would mean that N5 would finally allow PanO access to blocking LOS. But we will see in December (Hopefully).
