You are simplifying a complex equation too much, how do you equate in the above that tactical awareness and NCO lock specific models in activating? or that a loss results in more than one order been lost?
The 15 model cap wouldn't be so bad if all armies had been adjusted to account for that, but Ariadna wasn't. They got hurt by that. USARF got one tac aware order for the unknown ranger and it got NCO on the minuteman APHMG. FRRM got nothing until reinforcements. They both have a number of good troops that are cheap, which helped make up for the fragility of their expensive troops. USARF also has a number of good irregular troops, but it's harder to justify them when you're already short orders. Those are the two armies I play and my experience with the cap. Hopefully N5 adjusts everyone properly for that edition, unlike N4, then maybe the 15 cap won't be so bad. There's a reason why the reinforcement profile for Ariadna gives an extra two models.
I'd say it is not a problem of the Ariadna, more of a problem of sectorials designed mainly in N2. I have a feeling USARF was affected by that, despite being released in N3. I'm facing TAK on a kind-of regular basis, and they seem to be well-adjusted to the 300pts / 10 model game profile. Haqq RTF - who are of the same era - too. Hassassins, who are the newest Haqq refresh also gained some new, interesting and expensive units (while the old favorites like Ghazi Muttawi'ah and Daylami are definitely paying what one could call opportunity cost, I guess... being good cheap Irregulars, you can't really afford to field them in numbers).\ All a matter of updating the old armies...
If you cannot do lists that bring more 12 orders, you're the problem. Every faction in the game can do much better. Maybe you should consider other options. For example, working on your list building rather than blaming the game itself or constantly whining about almost everything...
My opinion remains that the 15 - or 1.5 combat group - unit cap is unnecessarily restrictive, that the base limit should be two full combat groups, and that the game and units should be balanced around this. While I sat out pretty much the whole N4 my initial impression was that changes to critical hits already helped high ARM units, and that with some more tweaks both elite and horde list styles would be equally viable. This approach is also more interesting, with a bigger gamestyle space to fit existing and new armies into, and for the players to come up with more varied and unique lists.
I used to play USAR with 20 models, when N4 released I just didn't know what to do with them and I sold them. Like people said, when CB introduced 15 model limit they didn't think at all how that would affect certain armies that are simply designed as horde armies. And I would be surprised if they did anything to fix that in N5. I like 15 order limit in general, would like it is 16 orders as I think it would allow more flexibility and with O12 prestige we all basically playtested that for a year.
I have 15 figures, but 2 Hidden dep and a paratrooper left me with 12 orders. 10 if i start playing But what if i cant reach 15, because various reasons? Is that bad? I have to sacrifice bringing to the table big guys or the things i like because "if your list is not maxed out, is shit?" That's the toxic mentality that ruined the game. We were happy playing 8+8 or 9+8 lists, but some tryharders broke the system. Ariadna's motto and playstyle always was, we lack of tech, but we have numbers. Now that's simply a lie The goal should be making every list competitive, regardless the body count
I would totally not be opposed to them making some Lt. options that offer a +1 or +2 troops for a price of some sort. Points or SWC. I like when there’s variety of Lt. to choose from. It would be a compromise between Identity and rules. Some armies rely more on more soldiers instead of tech. While some have master strategists who can do more with less. Or some that know how to get more equipment for their troops. This would especially be a thing that could be used on Zhanshi, Fusilier, Grunts, etc. BTW I tried making some lists over 15 troops and I really had to compromise quality for quantity. But this was with ISS and Starmada. Sure I could take a lot of Kuang Shi, but to take them, I had to take less of much better things. I also think much can be mitigated by them changing the AVA of some "spamable" troops. For example, Daylami should only be AVA3 in HB, not 5. Definitely not Total in vanilla!
It works best when your most efficient troopers are under 30pts. MRRF in particular would sometimes leave points left over in high-points games because you wanted more Chasseurs, and I hear USARF often is in a similar predicament. I'd rather not tie extra troop slots to a particular LT profile, we have little enough variety in good choices as it is (and Troops+2 is 2 Extra Orders at a cost, so it'd always be picked). Weird as it is, might be best to actually set Limited Insertion, Tactical Window and Full Deployment at faction level, like Fireteam access- no cost attached, just "this army is/is not designed for hordes". I'm not sure switching armies' access to build size is a good idea though, I'd rather CB just run through some of the weaker factions and give them effective go-wide kits while tuning up Warbands and Haqq's Irregulars to be a bit more elite and capable. That's just my opinion, though.
Starmada has a few great troops under 30pts. YJ not at all. In fact I was thinking of making a thread called 30pt challenge. Make a great list with troops 30pts or less only.
I guess that might require setting some ideas upside down... From a fluff POV, cheap irregular troops are what they are, because they are cheap and irregular. Poorly trained, lacking coordination / discipline, not very competent as combatants. IRL / historically, such troops tended to depend on either ambush tactics, or overwhelming numbers (i.e. "horde army"). Combining the two was preferred - gather a superior force to ambush and overwhelm a more competent opponent where he doesn't expect that, and is not able to keep enough forces to withstand the attack. From the game mechanic POV, these are cheap troops that do not generate Regular Orders. So, they cannot be used to provide cheap Order Batteries for your more competent models. They need either to be powered by the limited supply of Regular Orders generated by someone else, or rely on their own Irregular Orders, if you want to use them actively. And unless they are bringing to the table capabilites you otherwise lack - but definitely need - what is the gain? They are a burden on a Combat Group's ability to generate Regular Orders (which you need to activate all your models, including the more competent ones). So, what that leaves us with? Cheap, disposable Warband-like troops, we throw at opponents who seem vulnerable enough, hoping they'll take them down. Except to do so we need to expend Orders. As far as I see it, we now have three "currencies" we use to build our lists: Points, obviously. SWC. Slots in a list. Sure, every - or almost every - model costs the same, occupying 1 slot. But this means you have to pay just as much for a cheap irregular as you'd be paying for the most expensive TAG in this specific "currency". If irregular models were expensive, competent choices who spend their Order anyway, because you want them to do things - their situation would look in a very, very different way. Now, I'm not saying the situation we have now is necessarily bad - but makes me woneder, what is the place of cheap, incompetent, irregular troops in a high-tech black op setting with extremally limited number of bodies that can be deployed to an area of operations. To illustrate it - you have a helicopter flying out to deploy a special ops team on a secret mission. There are 10 seats available. Would you fill some of them with top-notch commandos, and a couple with undisciplined junkies / criminals, or rather have a full complement of not necessarily top-notch, but highly trained and well-equipped Special Forces soldiers?
maybe you can do individual troop cap for every faction. Ariadna 18, Pano 15, Nomads 12, CA 10, and so on...
The ideal would be to use the Impetuous Orders and/or advanced deployment skills usually found on such units to offset the burden on your Regular pool and allow you to get several adequate troops into a position where they can do their jobs rather than rely on one or two better troopers eating up half an Order pool. Sadly my practice with an Irregular/Impetuous-heavy army dates back to mid-N3 Bakunin-flavoured Nomads, but Impetuous Orders are really good, as are Haqq's Irregular Skirmisher types. Unfortunately it seems CB have gone all-in on Fireteams as the solution to Order crunch given they're even going to be in Vanilla. Experience says I'd fill the helicopter with a half-dozen recon drones crammed in like it's a clown car with a couple technicians and a Swiss Guard. Usually the fluff has the untrained whackjobs used like attack dogs, either to overwhelm a prepared position or guard a perimeter. I think the Daylami and Libertos are actually meant to be a guerilla ambush unit already in place in the operation area, though, and units like the Tech-Bee and ever-popular Warcor aren't even trained for military duties- they're there for civilian stuff. As for my opinion on the junkie/criminal thing, I think it's mostly there to fill the "bad guy/rebel" tropes from cyberpunk stories, especially from PanO/Yu Jing/Nomads. Cybered-up Morlock criminals leaping off roofs, the brainwashed, horrifying attrition units of the Kuang Shi, and the mistreated mutants of the Dog Warriors are there more for the action-scene potential than serious military fiction. (which is kinda a thing in Infinity in general, it took me a whole night once to come up with a setting where mechs aren't an actively terrible idea in a serious story yet here we have TAGs everywhere).
You decide to build a list with 3 minis not deployed on the table, of course you start with 3 orders less. That's your choice, and for these three orders you sacrifice, you benefit from the hidden deployment / paratrooper skills. You struggle with 3 orders less? Then try only 2. Or 1. That's up to you. Also, let me remind you that you have your LT order. And that Tac Awareness is a thing, just as impetuous. If you want more orders, you can have more orders. It's all about list building. No, countless lists work just fine without having 15 minis You can bring the big guys AND max out if you want. Every single faction can do that. I would say people constantly whining about everything are the ones ruining the game but hey... Sure, what a great idea for the game to allow some people to play twice as much miniatures than others. Surely, it won't bring any balance issues and it will be super fun for everyone!
The same that allow +4 or 5 extra orders because tac awa, NCO or Strategos. And everyone is happy with that. That's not a issue for you?
No. As long as the number of minis stays low and that most factions have it. If you compare this to one player being able to play 18 minis and the other being limited to 10, you're just being of bad faith.
