Starting out with ISS, I haven't played a game with them yet, but been doing a lot of list building. My lists are looking a bit samey, and usually end up some variation of kuang shi core +/- Crane/Xi, dakini/deva haris + EVO. Any one had success with more unusual fireteams? Are there any hidden gems in the Zhian fireteams, or interesting use of wildcards? Randomlist generator threw up this, which seems fun: ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 3 CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13) DEVA (Multispectral Visor L2) Spitfire, Nanopulser ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 33) DAKINI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 15) 1.5 SWC | 61 Points Open in Infinity Army
I want to try this one: ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 3 CRANE AGENT (X Visor) Spitfire, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49) CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) 2 SWC | 77 Points Open in Infinity Army My thinking is its basically a Crane with Spitfire that has some disposable synced Chain rifles.
Absolutely everything in the Zhian category are gold. Just avoid the trap loadouts, of which there are many. The cheap CSU and Bounty Hunters makes anything in there viable, Zhanying makes sure they can all get a lot of utility, and Hsien is a powerhouse. The only one that is truly dubious is Crane
I had a lot of fun with The Hsien multimarksmanrifle with tinbot, a Zhanying hacker und either a pheasant with madtraps e/mitter and boarding shotgun or Xi zhuang. The Team needs a little help to get in it's prefered rangebands but once it's there it works. I Played a variation of this once with a zhanying ML instead of the hacker. In exactly that game that ML critted in ARO against a corelinked Evader and blasted 3 members of that core. Just luck but still a great experience. Another Zhian i deploy is a Bao Multisniper, a bounty hunter and a Pheasant mine layer. I use that Team purely defencive to guard my Backup Lt. and with the bao as a back up long range gunner.
To do a "the good, the bad, the ugly" list: The good: Bao Sniper. It's not that it is a great profile, but it has a lot of utility in a faction which has a linked smoke launcher as near-mandatory. Pheasant Madtrap. This is not a killer, but it is a utility profile. The closest you get to a CoC in Yu Jing that does the job of being CoC instead of a rambo lunatic. Zhanying Madtrap, Hacker. Very high utility profiles. One gives you the Pheasant MadTrap utility where you trade CoC for Sensor and the other is a sixth sense hacker with D-Charges. Excellent loadouts and exactly the stuff I hope they do more of for Zhanying in a sectorial remake. Xi Zhuge. Honourable mention. Similar to Zhanying MadTrap, but slightly better and slightly different utility. Bounty Hunter SMG. Booty re-roll and a Kanone for 12 points? Yes please. CSU Rifle specialist. Template and specialist for 11 points? Meta-chem on top? Give me more! Hsien HMG. This is just about the only gun in the sectorial capable of removing entrenched AROs. As such he is almost mandatory. Hsien Multi Marksmanrifle. Tinbot on an MSV2 gun that shoots in the perfect engagement range is nothing to sneeze at. The niche: Bao combi, BSG. They're not bad, but they're also not good. Got the points over but not the slots or SWC, why not upgrade a Bounty Hunter? Pheasant Red Fury. Mainly because of TacAware, this mediocre gun fighter has a bit of utility and ability to get places and is one of few CoC that can actually do the objectives that ask for CoC. Crane Hacker. Stealth hacker in a fireteam can do interesting forks, even if it is quite badly overpriced both in terms of what you get and in terms of what the system should give you for these points. Zhanying Missile Launcher. It's the only ranged anti-materiel and you never know when CB makes this relevant again. It's not going to hit anything other than stationary objects, however. Bounty Hunters the other loadouts. While not as good as the SMG, they will do gunfighting better than the non-utility Zhanying profiles for a much lower price with the potential for getting a piece of gear that makes them much, much, better at it. CSU the other loadouts. There are no bad CSU loadouts, just one much better than the others. Shoutout to the cheap breaker rifles that ever since Kosmoflot and the Bears have been hyper-relevant. Hsien Multi Rifle specialist. It's a strong specialist, I guess. The LT profile is interesting, I guess. Issue is that you're paying a hefty premium for a unit that needs to get really, really, close to the enemy and unlike a lot of Martial Arts 1 units from N3, this one didn't get a free melee upgrade to level 2, so Hsien is still a small dog at this range. Sforza and Miranda. Two profiles that does the fighting job the Zhanying profiles tries to do better than the Zhanying at the same price. They're just not good enough to land in the good list compared to other options. The bad: Pheasant Hackers. Hacking just isn't a job a Chain of Command should do, especially since the only tinbot they can get is likely to be on the Lieutenant. Zhanying HMG, FO, plain Sensor, and LTs. The issue here is that they're all trying to do something that are not designed to be good at, which is generally speaking gunfighting. While not terrible, there's so many units that does the same thing at the same price better in the same fireteam list. Shoutout to FO profile that drops the key feature of the unit - Sensor. Crane non-hackers. Put simply, they are overpriced even when compared to profiles that are considered overpriced. They do almost nothing that you can't simply work your way around in the sectorial and removing them would do absolutely nothing to affect sectorial performance. The ugly: And so for the ugly truth about ISS. Because Zhian is so modular and encompasses so many good units, making an ISS list using the list randomizer has a seriously high chance of making a pretty decent list with a good shot at fielding all the units you need and using even the extra fireteams. Since there are so few actually bad profiles, at worst you'll have a small challenge making units work that you're not used to, but you won't ever get stuck with an unworkable mess at a fun randomizer event like so many factions will. Outside of randomizers, further ugly truth, is that people won't really know what to expect. Some will never have seen ISS and work on bad assumptions such as "two Su-Jian every time" while others will know ISS and know that assumptions are out the window. While it is true that Su-Jian are S tier units, Zhian fireteams are glitter in which to roll turds in to make so many mediocre units, maybe not shine, but at least glimmer. 3-fireteam ISS can definitely challenge the Su-Jian trope lists in performance once you clear the skill threshold. Oh, wait, I called this category "the ugly". My bad. Zhian actually makes this a very exciting and fun sectorial that is one remake away from being one of CB's best sellers again.
This is brilliant! loads of great insights. And yeah I've noticed the RandomListGenerator seems to throw up viable ISS lists almost every time. I usually play StarCo and love the flexibility of the wildcards and fireteams. It's not quite the same with ISS, but still lots of varied options, especially in those Zhian fireteams. Had a few questions if anyone has experience/comments: - Is the dakini MSR vs HMG better? I really can't tell which. It seems to come down to whether its an active turn role or an ARO, and does it really need the EVO? - Deva, probably going in the list to build that dakini haris, but WIP 15 seems like you are missing out if you don't take the LT or hacker, any good utility in the other options? - CG fireteams seem to be generally considered bad on here, but seems like you could build a Dakini/Deva haris up to a mixed CG core with something like a CG hacker or smoke launcher, or build a little support haris. Any value there? - And I really want to like the Kanren, but again they seem to be 'bad' according to the internet. I know the 'pretend unhackable is a hacker, etc' but I was thinking perhaps the shockmine minelayer using the mine to fake Lunah, or using the holoechos as kuang shi, to deter or funnel on turn 1. - and then the big one... Sophotect. There's so many good bots and HI options, and she is quite speedy, but 37pts to properly support everything is the cost of a KS core, or basic zhian Haris. Does she have a place in ISS?
Don't forget the fun stuff too! ZHÀNYING Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (1 | 26) ZHÀNYING Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (1 | 26) ZHÀNYING (Sensor, Triangulated Fire, Minelayer) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Madtraps / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 23) WÚ MÍNG Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25) WÚ MÍNG Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25) 2 SWC | 125 Points Open in Infinity Army This is one haris I had just started using and liking. The Zhanying makes good use of the Tinbot. I wanted to experiment with a pheasant hacker and something to replace the CSU but never had a chance. ZHÀNYING (Hacker, Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 25) HSIEN (Lieutenant) MULTI Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (+1 | 53) CSU (Specialist Operative) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 15) 0.5 SWC | 93 Points Open in Infinity Army
That first one does seem like fun, and sort of bargain in points and SWC. The randomlistgenerator seems to spam zhanying for me, and they kind of seem fun, if a little expensive. The MMR hsien/hacker/filler haris does look nice. Do you go in with the smoke game in mind, or does the hsien stand on his own well enough without all the support units and tricks?
I really don't see is as that expensive. 26pt 1SWC HMG is great and it's a PURE core. Side note: Zhanying get a +9 to discover camo in LoS. Sensor+Team bonus. The Bioimmunity helps a little. But then also Wu Ming Panzers for cracking tougher nuts. Not not with USING smoke in mind. More for going against it. I would go up against a lot of Haqq and some Ariadna. The MMR is fine for them. The Breaker is for Wolves and Bears. They have BTS 0.
I'll add that the main bad thing, for me, is needing to proxy the Zhanying HMG. But I've proxied worse lol.
The great thing about the Hsien Marksman / Zhanying hacker / whatever third guy haris is that the hacker still gets Sixth Sense, without you having to pay for a 4th body in the link. Same for the Deva Spitfire / CG Monitor smoke launcher / Dakini paramedic Haris. And you can get both of those -and- a shooty defensive Core in the same list, with space for either a TR HMG, decoy CG to hide your Lt, or a Pheasant in the same list. Amazeballs. Spoiler: Offensive version ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 8 1 HSIEN MULTI Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 53) ZHÀNYING (Hacker, Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 25) XI ZHUANG Combi Rifle, Light Flamethrower(+1B), Flash Pulse, Madtraps / Pistol, CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 21) CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13) CELESTIAL GUARD (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) DAKINI Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 21) DAKINI MULTI Sniper Rifle / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 20) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) GROUP 2 7 2 DEVA (Multispectral Visor L2) Spitfire, Nanopulser ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 33) DAKINI Combi Rifle / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 13) PHEASANT IMPERIAL AGENT Boarding Shotgun, E/Mitter / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 25) CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13) SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31) YUDBOT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) 5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army Spoiler: Defensive version Double MSV2 V2 better ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 9 HSIEN MULTI Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 53) ZHÀNYING (Hacker, Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 25) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 11) CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13) CELESTIAL GUARD (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) DAKINI Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 21) DAKINI MULTI Sniper Rifle / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 20) SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31) YUDBOT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) CELESTIAL GUARD Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) GROUP 2 6 2 DEVA (Multispectral Visor L2) Spitfire, Nanopulser ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 33) DAKINI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 15) CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) HÙSÒNG Yaókòng Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 24) 6 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army
Another weird but fun haris. They are just to cause ARO trouble. Not too expensive for what they do. Tons of fun when the ABH gets something awesome on the Booty roll. BÀO TROOP MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 29) BOUNTY HUNTER Sniper Rifle / Breaker Pistol(+1B), PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 19) BOUNTY HUNTER Sniper Rifle / Breaker Pistol(+1B), PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 19) 2.5 SWC | 67 Points Open in Infinity Army
I call this Shasvastii Nightmare. Lots of ms, sensor, sixth sense. Also you don't need high damage weapons against them. Shasvastii Nightmare ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 9 HSIEN (Lieutenant [+1 Order], Specialist Operative]) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (+1 | 54) BÀO TROOP Combi Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24) ZHÀNYING (Sensor, Triangulated Fire, Minelayer) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Madtraps / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 23) DEVA (Multispectral Visor L2) Spitfire, Nanopulser ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 33) DAKINI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 15) DAKINI Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 21) CELESTIAL GUARD (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 18) CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13) MAJOR LUNAH VIRAL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 29) GROUP 2 4 RUI SHI (Multispectral Visor L2) Spitfire ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 23) PANGGULING (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15) WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 15) WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 15) 6 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army
I'm this close to consider a 3 man pure bao haris sometimes, just to stack discover bonuses, but it's a bit too niche for me to commit to it.
A pure team is really not needed since Bao get a Discover +3 and BV/MSV2. I'm not sure it stacks with the team bonus. Discovering on 20 is great, but a 17 is not bad at all.
It should stack. Why not. Different sources. But Bao still lack a high-burst / mid-range weapon. A MMR would be enough, a RF or SF would be nice. ISS has many sources for MSV but Bao are the not amoung the most taken. This will be: Hsien for linkable high BS/high impact, Deva for the medium thing or Rui Shi with EVO support. Bao are just too expensive, too squishy and in a dire need for a nice rework.
The price for Bao is about the average for a BS12, MSV2 troop, even a little lower, when compared to other factions. And the majority of MSV2 troops do not have higher than burst 3 weapons. It’s sucks he doesn’t have a Spitfire or something more but that’s what his teammates are for. ABH Spitfire and Red Fury, Pheasant Red Fury, Zhanying HMG. What they lack in comparison to other factions is a specialist option and ability to be in a core fireteam.
Biovisor needs a fix (stripping both levels of Impersonate at once being the most obvious). If it gets it, Bao might actually be worthwhile. That and/or give them Marksmanship or something. Would work well alongside all the other Discover stuff.
