Suggestion: Medium Infantry

Hello,
Not sure it is the way to go, the price of these profiles would go up even more and considering how ubiquitous shock ammunition is (hello SMG), it wouldn't make them that much more resistant...
But something has to be done to make MI more appealing, indeed...

 

I get the desire to make MI better, but I do not believe universal solutions are the best approach. That will just make the good ones better. I definitely don't want to have to deal with NWI Bolts or Tiger Soldiers.

MI historical niche (which may be eroding) is that they bring critical skills or equipment to an army, like MSV, combat jump, and powerful gunfighting. Maybe we can add more like sensor, or tac aware on specific supportive profiles.

Edit: Lean into them providing utility.

 

What @Brokenwolf said. Blanket changes don't work because not every medium infantry is terrible. Bolts are great. Bagh-Mari are great. Grenzer snipers are great. Most of the new Bakunin stuff is good to great.

It's just that there are a lot of MI profiles that technically cost the right amount for the skills the bring, it's just that their skill set isn't useful enough to make it worth the points you're paying for a 1W model. The new Jackboots are the perfect example. 20ish pts for a Total Immunity unit with no other gunfighting skills and one wound. No one would take that when they can take 2W HI for similar points.

I think Corvus Belli doesn't cost the value of wounds enough. When a model doesn't threaten to die from a single template, its value increases disproportionatly to the points you're usually paying for the privilege.

I say make a lot of them cheaper. Any 1W LI or MI in the 20pts bracket will only be taken if it has a really optimized skill set for a certain role. 30+ points requires them to be best in class for their role (Grenzer sniper, Bolt sniper, Yaogat sniper, Tiger Soldiers, Intruders, Agema ML, Taqeul, Epsilon).

If the Jackboots for example were 5pts cheaper, they still wouldn't do much, but they wouldn't be too expensive for that to matter. An 18pt Total Immunity BS12 HRL in a Haris would be a nice, cheap ARO alternative to a Hellblazer with Flammenspeer. At 22pts, it doesn't even come close.

 

It is a balance. N3 valued wounds too much and made HI and TAGs too expensive. N4 fixed that, but like you said, it made some single wound models too expensive. Plus the mass amount of templates in N4 also increases the values of multiple wounds.

I do agree that there needs to be some additional calculation for MI that arbitrarily keeps them from getting too expensive. But I have no idea how.

 

Just do it by hand. I never understood why CB would (allegedly) stick to their points cost formula so religiously. My approach would be:

1. Calculate unit cost using the formula.
2. Look at the result and think about if that sounds fair.
3. Adjust by hand as needed.

Sure, their formula might tell them that Peacemakers should theoretically cost 4pts more. But no one complained about Peacemakers, so no one forced them to act on it. Similarly, just because being irregular and having Frenzy theoretically makes a Liberto cost 8pts, maybe it, you know, shouldn't?

 

I can tell what you are trying to get at. MI needs...something. I'm not sure NWi is the way to go. Or Dogged either. I like being able to heal some of them with a doctor and you don't get that most of the time with that. I think just giving all of them +1 ARM, and nothing more, would be good. Sure some would have up to ARM4 but with only 1 wound that's not really a big deal. I think light should be 0-3, MI 3-5, HI 3-5, TAG 6-9.

 

Moved to rules suggestions.

I think it is an interesting discussion, I would say a "universal" rule is not as bad if it can give a cohesion to the group, for example with the exception of Ariadna, when someone encounters HI they expect Hackable and effectively two wounds.

 

I think trying to find a universal solution to fixing bad MI/single wound elite troopers is impossible because while a lot of these profiles have similar issues, you still have to treat them on a case by base basis due to nuances in their profiles, their respective factional contexts and so on.

It's already been mentioned that slapping NWI on Bolts and similar units like Grenzers and Zhayedan would most likely be a bit too much, but it's also not a change that would really do anything some other classic bad MI like Infirmarers and Govads.

 

The MI problem isn't their stats, their problem is N4 put DTWs on all shotguns (terrible change) and then CB started overoptimising profiles by sticking DTWs fucking everywhere.

Look at the new sectorial, Torchlight. Look at this shit.

SILVERSTAR Combi Rifle, Light Riotstopper ( | TinBot: Firewall [-3]) / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 29)
HELLBLAZER Light Shotgun, Flammenspeer / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
MENT Light Shotgun / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 15)
VIDOCQ FTO (Doctor) Boarding Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
PSI-COp (Multispectral Visor L1) Nanopulser(+1B), MULTI Marksman Rifle ( ) / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25)
JACKBOOT (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle(+1 Dam), Light Riotstopper, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
PRIME Heavy Machine Gun(+1 Dam), Heavy Riotstopper / Heavy Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 53)
WRECKER Heavy Machine Gun, Chain Rifle(+1B) / CC Weapon. (1.5 | 57)
ZETBOT Flash Pulse / CC Weapon. (0 | 0)
HIPPOLYTA Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 40)
JAMIE (Lieutenant [+1 Order]) Plasma Rifle, Akrylat-Kanone, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 49)
SONYA (NCO) MULTI Rifle, E/Marat / MULTI Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
RAVENEYE (Chain of Command) Submachine Gun, E/Marat, Flash Pulse, E/M Mines ( | Holomask) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 19)
DIGGER Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon(+1B). (0 | 14)
BEASTHUNTERS (Surprise Attack [-3], Camouflage, Forward Deployment [+8"]) Heavy Flamethrower, Panzerfaust, AP Mines / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
STORMBOT FTO Heavy Rocket Launcher, Pulzar, E/M Mines / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 29)
MOONRAKER (Minelayer) Heavy Shotgun, Adhesive Launcher, Shock Mines / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 16)

16 out of 25 units not including the standard support REMs etc that are likely to have DTWs in their selection. It's not just TB either this has been a consistent design choice for every new and revamped sectorial, fucking DTWs everywhere.

If CB hadn't made this mistake of spamming the ever loving shit out of DTWs, attack based 1W models, especially those paying for vis mods, would be more viable.

When you've got fireteams running around that look like this:


IA
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

5 1
HǍIDÀO (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
CHIEF JEONG K1 Combi Rifle, AP Mines, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 29)
SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49)
KOKRAM FTO MULTI Rifle(+1 Dam), Chain-colt, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
LÉI GŌNG (Chain of Command) Submachine Gun, Nanopulser, Blitzen / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 32)

Out of them, 4 guys have lethal multiburst DTWs, and the 1 guy who doesn't is dropping mines. When this kind of stuff is going on in the game why is it any wonder that elite and costly 1W attacking pieces struggle so much to have a proportionate impact?

 

This. While I do like the idea of MI being by default more durable than LI - it would at least make the difference between those two actually meaningful - it was already mentioned, that good MIs don't need this help. As it is, there's an overabundance of non-HI units with NWI+Immunity, and it crowds HI niche, particularly in case of those HIs which don't bring a significantly more useful kit to the table.

I'd start by reverting the N4 change to how shotguns work, making DTWs more scarce, and checking how this changes things.

 

Frankly putting non lethal and lethal direct template weapons in the same category is not a good idea, never the less, I much prefer shotguns now than what they were before.

While I do understand the sense of proliferation in direct template weapons and I did almost lost a Teuton haris and a Tikbalang to them today, I think that without them many game elements, especially warbands would run amok.

 

Warbands are at least partially kept in check by increased proliferation of MSV. Also, when they're in range to be DTW'd, they're in range to use their own, which is kinda their point, and also too late to consider them countered.

And I very much prefer the way shotguns worked previously.

 

Never, I have seen the arguments of what vector the template should be aligned and it was never pretty, outside of a digital environment and extremely short distances it was never a workable rule.

 

Frankly I would prefer to just see the Template mode gone. In the absence of another Template weapon shotguns are already the undisputed kings of close-quarters FTF rolls thanks to their high-damage AP shots and unrivalled range modifier, and if a Template attack is needed to make a given unit work then a Nanopulser can be retrofitted onto a profile without requiring a change to the mini's design.

 

The previous iteration of shotguns were fine. A line laser, which costs like ten euros or something from army painter, which most players should have to show LOF and base arcs, was all it took to figure out the template alignment. That was not a particularly difficult task.

Pretending that was difficult is just being deliberately obtuse.

 

You can also use a tape measure something that you must have to play the game.

Pretending the complains did not exist and they were not of sufficient volume is a purposeful ignorance of the facts.

 

Complaints of "user refused to use readily available tools" were not valid, nor worth acting on to actively make the game balance worse.

And don't try and pretend it doesn't. CB gave Moiras a whooping 7pt discount and they're still awful enough at their job to need the creation of 2W doorkickers to babysit them in a fireteam to even make them remotely viable to play.

Somewhere around the realm of a 20-25% discount on their cost and they're still sub par. That's how badly the DTW changes and proliferation screw them over.

Thanks to listening to people who were not worth listening to we have N4 changes such as the awful hacking situation and DTW spam, thanks guys.

 

The ultimate question that needs to be answered is what makes your opinion worth more than everyone else, and not be equal with everybody else and worth consideration?

Your contempt for everybody's opinion is not a good answer.

 

While I disagree with @Triumph tone and hostility, he does make a good point about CB leaning into template proliferation. The new Haqqislam additions of the Burkut and Korsan both add multiple burst template options.

I would love to know CB's logic of making short range so deadly. Are they trying to promote more TAGs or Climbing+?