Does anyone know if MO profiles show up on the regular in Vanilla lists? I've heard of the odd Teuton or Santiago, but not much else. Maybe we get some "design space" back if we just boot all those profiles over to MO-exclusive, and deal with "PanO" and "MO" balance as separate issues?
Looking at Stats website, the Joan and Teutons are the only really common MO units used in Vanilla (Over 20% of lists). MO's Trinitarians, Dart, MO Tikibangs, and Montessa Paramedic unique units are common in MO. So I don't think Vanilla is poaching too much from MO. EDIT: And looking at Hospitalers, I definitely agree with @Stiopa. In isolation, they are super powerful. If they were pure linkable with Teutons, that would be a huge power boost.
Any reason not to make it Peacemaker Mk.2 (replacing the current profile. Keeping the current model, too, since it has the same Silhouette. S 4 is S 4)? Fluff-wise, hey, time has moved on, PanO has gathered feedback form the battlefields of 3rd Offensive, Acheron's Fall, Ravenseye Crisis, Fall of Concilium, yadda yadda, revised and updated their REMs...
I think it is a mixture of MO been a really popular army getting a lot of players and been a difficult army to handle resulting in the winrate they have. In my opinion MO need a lot of outside the box thinking to properly utilize and it is quite possible we have not seen a lot of the odd tactics the sectorial can provide. I know I have used once the full core of FD hospitalers and my opponent was not happy about it, but using something once proves nothing except they would appreciate support for such unit to properly work.
I fully agree with everything said, also with Valiant storm. But on this very specific part I actually only see the KoJ value as the hacker in Duo with Joan in mobility armor. I used it in a mission where the Evo hacker was providing bonuses to butin pushing, so I used also Faory dust. That duo is impressive. It’s extremely fast, extremely mobile. It’s extremely resilient to hacking, almost immune, because with Joan WIP 15 and Fairy dust, she can go through through a repeater while resetting, and is also protected by the KoJ that is a decent hacker. And is a great CC duo, and is a great specialist Duo, and is a great shooting Duo.
This will be back to one of the reworks... MO, If I´m not remembering badly, is the army with more reworks since N2... I think MO is in a good place right now, taking in account my experience facing it and playing it, but they aren´t too many viable lists to play "competitive". Maybe the thing about competitive is you have 2 list to do missions and to fight back. Panocenia army isn´t flexible, MO is no exception. So, if you choose to fight with a lot of knights and don´t face any hard hacking list you probably will be good, even with a hard hacking list you could be good if you start the game. What you said about ´looking profiles at isolation is part of the problem of a high number of profiles for Panoceania. If you look the profile pretty much all are more than OK, but later, when they need to play together is when issues come. It is something similar to check the BS attribute... Yes, Pano have a lot of BS15 and a lot of 14... but this comes with so extra cost that you will be allowed 1 or maybe 2 profiles. So, what is it best? To have one BS15 or several with lower BS but better skills that allow you to cover more table. In a time when most armies play one group or two but the secondary one was the doctor and a couple of servitors plus some flash pulse... One BS15 was enough... but not anymore. This part of the whole point of this post: "the space design for Pano". Yes, that could be said is similar to my haris in Winterforce, KoJ, Boyg and Hospitaller Doctor... A killing machine and even able to push buttons. Problem... they have to go in the middle and be capable to survive. When they do, it feels really powerful, when doesn´t quite the opposite.
MO has had loads of attention, but it still struggles quite a bit imo. Corregidor is the same. I'd put them at roughly the same level.
That is a correct assessment, roughly the same player population and win ratio, the only difference is all late Corregidor additions are put in a pedestal because "Nomads" this does not help at all.
Nomads are in a funny spot because while they get a lot of hate they don't seem to objectively win a lot of tournaments and they aren't the most powerful vanilla or Sectoral factions, but Bakunin has a lot of good options and gets a lot of troops and minis and interesting design ideas, and that becomes "Nomads" even though Tunguska are Fine and Corregidor are honestly just like, MO level My theory has long been that people want "cool and good" rather than "boring and really good" and PanO lays that out. It's like how MO used to be great cos you could spam TO Camo order sergeants, which yes was undeniably great but people play Knights for Knights, and people play PanO to take cool PanO guys, not a Cutter and as many mercs as possible
That is I think correct, most competitive MO lists I have made has minimal knights content, performed well, but do not feel quite MO. I also agree on your assessment of "Nomads".
My exact stance. I want PanO - and all factions - to be equally interesting to play, not only balanced mechanically. Corregidor is an interesting example, because out of all Nomad sectorials it's the only one that I'd really like to play, I find its vibe, models, and available options cool af.
They cannot full Rambo, that’s a certainty. But no one can really. If you overextend too much, any unit will get down. You can however protect them very well with the Trinitarians. And with Inspiring leadership, it’s not that hard to move Trinitrians, lay mines, and reform Fireteam later. Or break the fireteam, make a coordinated order with some other troopers. Maybe why not even with a MSR Trinitarian. I feel there are additional options to discover to make this Duo work in a meaningful way. Anyway, on turn 2 or 3 they definitely have the capacity to breakthrough the lines and unleash hell. Obviously, just be careful there isn’t a Daturazi on some E/M weapon that will ruin your day closeby
MO are fine, it's their damn fireteam compositions that suck. Gods they really suck. For a small-count sectorial with a heavy emphasis on fireteams, their chart is so prohibitive. Here's a few things that would massively help MO, with no profile rewrites: 1) Make Santiago (Knight Hospitaller) - bingo, tinbot and great specialist breaths new life into an otherwise really stiff core. 2) Make Joan (not Mobility) a wildcard. There's no reason she shouldn't have a bit of crosier backup. It shouldn't cost 117pts to put her in a haris. The best way to play Joan atm is in vanilla, and it's not even close: that needs to change, pronto. 3) Make Knight of Justice (Crosier), to make it a feared piece rather than a joke. Gives the KoJ a unique selling point; it leads mooks to glory... KoJ currently has no role in a core, as the Teuton does the same kind of job for half the price.
That would be soooo cool, yet non game breaking. And fluff wise it’s cool. Joan and/or the KoJ leading and inspiring MO more junior troops in their fireteam to overdo themselves (via the +3BS and +1B) is nothing else than super badass
This is exactly what I have been saying for a long time. Review linkability and adjust some really horrible profiles, but the second would be mitigated if the first is resolved. 1) I completely agree, it would not generate any type of imbalance. 2) Okay, although I have never been a big fan of Joan I completely understand the point and it would be an interesting change. 3)This would be an excellent change but I hardly see it materializing. Nowadays MO's long range options are poor to mediocre and I understand that CB deliberately wants to keep them that way. A Trinitarian MSR that doesn't link, a Black Friar MSR that doesn't link or a Crosier MSR that linked is shooting at 15 without MSV. OK it is possible to add a TK in a Crosiers core, but you would be shooting his ML at 14 without MSV. Adding the KoJ in a link with all the mods means that you would be giving MO a long-range weapon, the ML, to a unit with ARM 5 and 2 wounds that would be shooting B2 at 17. For me it would be excellent, it would make the enemy keep his head down in an army that has no smoke and has no way to advance without receiving 500 AROs. But as things stand now, they would consider it too oppressive.
I agree the KoJ could need some help, but I feel it's a bit unfair to state MO has poor long range gunfighting options when they have access to the MO Tikbalang and KotHS. While the KotHS is mostly notable for it's resilience to a lot of asymmetric methods while being a fairly acceptable long rang gunfighter (tough, B4, AP, BS 14), the MO Tik is pretty widely acknowledged as one of the best gunfighters in the game. For sure it's not a wealth of options, but it's also some p strong options.
You're right Quehacesfede, it would be a big shift for MO so for that reason it probably wouldn't happen. The Teuton ML is deffo the best aro piece in the faction right now, and BS17 ML would be a serious threat to non-mim targets. Guess we have to go play a power house like *checks notes* Star Co if we want that kind of aro power :D
I disagree. My understanding (and at least what I see from the other people I talk to) is long range guns are anything that are good to shoot beyond 24". I don't see how only MSRs and MLs fit that category - my experience is that it's not uncommon to have a game where there isn't a single gunfight that goes beyond 32" - but there's always plenty of engagements that happen past 24".
