To be fair, those are usually from very different players. Crossovers and promotions tend to bother certain kinds of fluffy players unless very well done, due to diluting the theme. Fans of the crossover property itself with less interest in Infinity's own typical feel will be upset if they're missing out on using the characters they're interested in. And competitive players will be annoyed if a faction's options get too wide and bloated by further additions, especially if their own collections aren't as favoured. I used to find Soldiers of Fortune a perfectly acceptable dumping ground for fun additions without severely affecting competitive balance, though I'll admit to being ticked a bit that Aristeia! crossover characters were being released at a higher rate than any actual Infinity faction- some of whom were (and still are!) in need of help. I know SoF wasn't a particularly popular tournament addon, but that might be a failing of only using tournament data- I know my own casual group had a player who only had a valid list using the rule at the time, and none of us had a problem with it.
That's the point, really. There is a wide range of player desires, all pulling in different directions. Mostly, we gripe and pick fault while ignoring the hypocrisy.
Trying to please everyone usually ends up in pleasing no one, so I'd really like CB to just pick a consistent direction
Nah, SMG could stay cheap. No problem. The problem is - it is an AP/Shock weapon that's very cheap. Without it, it is just a B3 DAM 13 close-in gun: good up to 8", acceptable to 16", difficult to use up to 24", very difficult up to 32", and completely useless beyond 32". Essentially a Combirifle with trunctated range bands. Absolutely something one could see handed out to support troops (medics, engineers, other types whose primary job is not going pew-pew at someone). And definitely within a good reason to be cheap. Slapping AP/Shock on it, that should indeed cost extra. That's almost (i.e. lacking the DA mode) being a Multi without calling it MultiSMG. So, yeah, keep SMGs cheap, but if you issue them to various secret squirrels with special ammo (AP, Shock, Viral, etc), make thme pay for it. I see no reason why there couldn't be: SMG AP SMG Shock SMG Breaker SMG Viral SMG Multi SMG... The game system can handle it, no problem - the rules are already there.
I totally agree The problems of SMG are Not bad medium range and optimal CQB range, giving it an optimal use on advanced deployment model B3 Suppressive Fire Ammo choice between AP and Shock CB just need to remove AT LEAST one of those, to be a weapon priced so low. Then proceed to get the variation already listed above. It is ridiculous that a Boarding Shotgun costs so much more
Said it before and I will say it again, SMG should be CQB high burst weapon for killing unarmoured targets. So B4 DAM13 no special ammo, no supp fire, rangebands like now. It is preffered weapon on infiltrators/paratroopers in the game, make it great at killing back line troops these have easier access to. Not 1 point uber weapon it is now.
since SMGs use pistol ammo, i would say DAM 12 or even 11. They shouldn't have the same damage than an standard rifle
You're trying to apply real-life to Infinity. And this doesn't work that way. Yes, Pistol has DAM 11 / B 2, however: Viral Pistol has DAM 12 / B 2 and DA+Shock Assault Pistol has DAM 13 / B 4. And I see no-one protesting it all day long. Heavy Pistol has DAM 14 / B 2 and Shock. One can imagine the Infinity "SMG" as at least three modern weapon classes: traditional SMG (firing a pistol cartrige. Though, to my knowledge, there are cartriges that, whiel sized same as pistol ones, are optimized for larger mass and barrel length of a SMG / PCC), carbine (firing an intermediate cartrige, and being, essentially, a shorter, lighter version of a standard "assault rifle", albeit typically with less range, and often not the same stopping power) PDW (firing a sub-intemediate cartrige, and actually in many cases optimized for use against opponents wearing body armor, so more or less represented by AP effect under Infintiy rules) Sure, graphic representation of SMGs on the models seems to point towards traditional SMG (bah, very much inspired by H&K MP5, if I'm to judge by the magazines...), but that doesn't have to mean a thing. Under the rules, we seem to have weapons closer to short-ranged MultiRifles, that don't cost the part. And that's where the dog lies buried.
So basically an Assault Pistol. I'm with Errhile on that SMG should get expanded into whole family of weapons with different ammo types. And all of them costed accordingly. Another thing I'd like to see is less Shock and Shock Immunity (making SMG not having Shock as standard would be good step in that direction). I do remember how people complained back in N2/N3 about expensive 1W+NWI models being too easy to kill, and I'm guessing this is where current proliferation of such immunity comes from, but it turns too many models into basically Light HI with none of their drawbacks. It's ok to have this combination on some exceptionally durable non-HI units, but as an exception, not the norm. And another thing, I really hope we'll see Multi Spitfire at some point. We already have Multi Marksman Rifle with Burst +1 pretty much fills this role, if with slightly better CQB rangeband.
In N3, I agreed with you about SMGs. But with the N4 shotgun change, using an SMG in it's good band is usually suicide due to how prevalent templates are.
Silverstar Prime will be fine imo. Kill him with guns. Get a Morlock with an E/MCCW into him and he's toast
Agreed. But also agreed that he's slightly undercosted and overoptimized compared to existing lines (and not even overcosted ones like the Kriza). Not a game-breaker, but definitely an uphill climb if met head-on. Asymmetric attacks will be the way to take him out. That Morlock will have some serious work to do to get past the Moonrakers and mines first though.
I dunno I reckon that nomads will have little issue with the TB midfield. But they do definitely have a strong presence. I'd prefer the Kriza to have BS Attack (-3) purely thematically, but I still think its a solid unit. The SP is def better though you are right.
This. Deleting shock from the game would also save a lot of text on nearly every HI, REM, TAG: Immunity (Shock). The game will do good without shock. In some cases it is useful, but without you simply have to doulble tap some minis to make sure, the leave the battelfield. Also have the feeling, that about 90 percent of new units with NWI are immum to shock. Except some expensive YJ characters and the whole old Aleph profiles: Deva, Naga, Proxys, Dasyus ... Tochlighters "fake" HIs are all immum, because why not? Here are some ideas for fixes: Fix SMG = Normal ammo, no pts reduction - finish Fix Pitchers = are difficult, maybe change the rangeband, without a + range - finish? Fix Spotlight = vanish in states phase - finish (maybe also take the -3 for reset away) Fix shock = delete fromt the game - finish Fix Silverstar Primaris + 10 pts - finish ;-) Oh and please CB: When you print an alphabetical list, please not go by the ammo type first. edith: I thought of the no-fireteam boni and forgot that they use WIP only.
@archon usually I agree with your ideas but two of the above seem pretty incorrect (IMO): Shock: Shock is fine, and interesting IMO. I use Doctor a lot, and the presence of Shock ammo definitely changes the way I play the game. It makes decisions more complex and interesting, creates different forms of risk, etc. Definitely true that Shock Immune got handed out too much. Pulling that from a few profiles during whatever the next big balance pass is would make sense. Pitchers: Pitchers definitely do -not- need a boost to being a tech tech weapon, where the hacker who wield them will be even more accurate in strewing the battlefield with Repeaters. The last thing the game needs is more accurate Pitchers. Jazz shooting Pitchers on 14 base, 17s most of the time, would be way too good and I say that as a very frequent Jazz user/abuser.
While my Barids would love pitchers becoming technical weapons, as I said before, pitchers are not the problem with hacking, it is actually the Hacking Program balance. But N4 has made it clear with army and unit design that being HI and "Hackable" definitely gives a price discount. So any change needs to take that balance in account.
I still think shock is bloat. It fills profiles with a wording that would not needed, if do not have shock or write the rule in another way, when have to write 1000 times shock immum its easer to write 10 times vulnarable to shock. Sry I forgot about that the use of WIP replaced all with Technical Weapons I thought of the bold part about fireteam boni. Maybe just change the rangeband in something without a +.
