Would making a change just to the Hexa KHD/HD profile be enough? You could give them either additional BTS, Upgrade(Zero Pain), Hacking -3, or even a tinbot. A hidden dangerous KHD would be a cool solution.
Definitely. It was a bit before my time, but according to what I've heard the Hexa was part of the very first wave of profiles to get a KHD, specifically to fill the niche.
The more I look at it, giving the Hexas hackers a tinbot-3 or -6 profile would allow the them a nice defense niche and is fluff supported. I know how much people harp on O-12 eating PanO's lunch, but wow, the Lynx versus Hexa balance is ridiculous: HEXA: MOV: 4-4 CC: 17 BS: 12 PH: 11 WIP: 13 ARM: 1 BTS: 0 W: 1 S: 2 AVA: 1 PanO HEXA ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 4 HEXA Spitfire / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 29) HEXA MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 30) HEXA (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 28) HEXA (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 26) 3.5 SWC | 113 Points Open in Infinity Army LYNX: MOV: 4-4 CC: 15 BS: 13 PH: 10 WIP: 14 ARM: 1 BTS: 3 W: 1 S: 2 AVA: 2 O-12 LYNX ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 4 LYNX MULTI Sniper Rifle, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33) LYNX Shock Marksman Rifle, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 29) LYNX (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, Cybermines ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 30) LYNX (Specialist Operative) Plasma Carbine, D-Charges / Assault Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 29) 1.5 SWC | 121 Points Open in Infinity Army The few extra points seems worth it...
That is just straight up a weakness. In general, the power level of a faction is defined by how many good noninteractive options it has. Other factions can do what PanO does, sometimes even better. But PanO can't do what other factions can do. "Play like PanO" is actually "Play to lose."
PanO's very best still beat out the competition, but O12 plays a wide gunfighting game far better than even the CA. Everything above the basic footsoldiers in O12 beat out the PanO equivalent and are credible threats into other factions' elites. Their weakness is in price and in that their units are heavily and obviously specialised for one role only; I actually consider O12 to be one of the game's best-designed armies in a vaccuum. Only real problem is that the extra pinch on design space seems to have left PanO in a problem spot that CB mostly seem to be ignoring as the MO Sectorial carries the entire PanO portfolio, being both internally more cohesive and having exclusive access to Trinitarians, who would effectively solve much of the vanilla faction's troubles by themselves.
There is some dissonance between actual tournament statistics, player experience and your opinion, so I must ask do you play with PanOceania? do you have actual practical experience and been forced to solve the problems the faction has in real time or you engage the discussion from an academic/ observer viewpoint? There is a difference when you actually play the faction and its sectorials and when you just theory craft in the army.
That is quite interesting, indeed the Hexa was one of the first killer hackers introduced and created quite the impact in NCA, from the comparison of the two unironically I would prefer the Hexa for NCA, the few points more mean they cannot fit in the already expensive sectorial they are designed to be in, but in the vacuum, Lynx loosing shock immune and been less survivable in CC is not bad for a few more points. Of course I would not mind the +1 BS and WIP (though WIP 14 would be extraordinary for PanO) but not for 3 more points...
I get what you are saying @psychoticstorm, but in regard for hacking, the lynx KHD is superior to the hexa KHD in all aspects for only 4 points. The extra BTS, WIP, BS, better gun, and Mines seem worth it. But...then I ran the actual numbers of using them in the reactive turn to waste orders to protect another hackable from an aggressive pitcher. The difference was IMO, nominal and probably not worth the 4 points.. If you gave the Hexa khd/HD Upgrade: Zero Pain (+ 1 WIP), it would be a unique hacking defense for NCA (and Vanilla) and potentially waste an opponent's orders.
Killer hackers just aren't very good at that, though? Unless I'm missing something, repeaters don't generate AROs, so they drop a pitcher or fastpanda and then hack through it while the Killer Hacker stands around watching. Is that a 5-man Bigfoot like, or can they include the Loch Ness Monster without loosing the composition bonuses? Seriously, where are these oppressive fire teams hiding? The dominant theme of link charts seems to be that other factions get similar flexibility in what goes in a team, but a huge amount of freedom with what keeps the pure link bonus. You also don't get little perks like being able to use a random Pathfinder or Clipper to fill out a Hospitallars link. Looks like pretty clear selection bias, honestly. No one IIT seems to dispute that MO has the least bad tools for dealing with various types of non-interactive play, and has by far the worst numbers on Infinity Stats Project, and not coincidentally the largest playerbase by a fair margin. This is something that shows up all the time in warhammer stats - Guard and Space Marines have gigantic player bases, and their numbers are always worse than the real power of the army suggests. If anything, the best takeaway is that Vanilla Combined is hilariously broken to manage such a high winrate with the largest player base, which is something known to anyone who has actually played the game. Sure, but the Marat is bad. It hasn't got Mimetism, extra burst, Marksmanship, static modifiers, or any of the other factors that tend to make a high-end gunfighter stand out. It's got the Visor to be a thematic opposite to the Avatar, but those two aren't remotely equivalent skills. I could see a case being made for Crossiers, because they can get a visor on their Spitfire guys, but otherwise their basically a direct downgrade to Fusilers for anything that you actually use Line Troops for. The both units also have to trade burst to get an AP weapon that can actually stand a good chance of hurting a TAG in cover. And neither Fusilers or Crossiers are really a selling point of PanO. The best that can be said for them is that they beat out the line infantry that I'm reasonably sure are intentionally bad, like Morat Vanguards and Securitae. But they don't live up to things like Guhlam Infantry, who get the much better rifle + light shotgun loadout on their cheerleader and utility profiles, Unidrons, who get Dogged and plasma weapons, and Daktini, who are mimetic. I'd say Regulars are the exception to this, as they have good utility profiles and can get mimetism on the sapper sniper guy But they're only in Acon, which has other problems. My only complaint is they can't have a minelayer sensor Lieutenant, which sort of requires taking two of the Vanilla guys to hide the LT, when the desired number of those profiles is probably zero.
Problem is, you'll have to declare Zero Pain or Trinity before the opposing Hacker acts. If you use Trinity, you probably lose the FTF (and certainly lose it if it's a top-end Hacker like Jazz), if you go for Zero Pain they just hack the original target. Not to mention that the stone wall that was N3 KHDs wasn't exactly well-liked either. Better to amp up the Trinity, and threaten to avenge that disruption in your active turn- really make the opponent weigh up the costs and benefits of diving a Repeater into your DZ, where you might be able to dismantle their whole Hacking network in return.
Yesterday I played a tournament with Winterforce, again. It had a "custom reinforcement rule", first group was up to 10 troups, old Limited Insertion, then the second group will be 100 points with 5 troupes limit. The second group will be deployed after first turn, first player first, and it will be done as a "forward deployment +10 cm". I managed reach second place XD. Spoiler: Lists GTS1 ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GRUPO 1 10 NISSE Ametralladora / Pistola, Arma CC. (1.5 | 34) NISSE Fusil de Francotirador MULTI / Pistola, Arma CC. (1.5 | 33) NISSE (Sanitario) Fusil Combi, Escopeta Ligera ( | MediKit) / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 30) UMA SØRENSEN FTO (Teniente) Fusil Combi Breaker(+1 Daño) / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 27) MAQUINISTA WinterFor (Mimetismo [-3], Terreno [Total]) Fusil Combi, Cargas-D ( | GizmoKit) / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 18) FUSILERO Ametralladora / Pistola, Arma CC. (1 | 18) FUSILERO Fusil Combi / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 10) FUSILERO (Sanitario) Fusil Combi ( | MediKit) / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 12) FUGAZI DRONBOT Pulso Flash / Arma CC PARA(-3). (0 | 7) FUSILERO Fusil Combi / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 10) GRUPO 2 5 CABALLERO DE JUSTICIA Spitfire / Pistola Pesada, Arma CC DA. (1.5 | 47) QUINN Fusil de Precisión Shock, Pulso Flash / Pistola Breaker(+1R), Arma CC. (0 | 24) FUSILERO (Hacker, Disp. Hacker) Fusil Combi ( ) / Pistola, Arma CC. (0.5 | 15) FUGAZI DRONBOT Pulso Flash / Arma CC PARA(-3). (0 | 7) FUGAZI DRONBOT Pulso Flash / Arma CC PARA(-3). (0 | 7) 6 CAP | 299 Puntos Abrir en Infinity Army GTS2xD ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GRUPO 1 10 KARHU Feuerbach(+1R), Minas AP / Pistola, Arma CC. (1.5 | 35) FUSILERO (Teniente) Fusil Combi / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 10) FUSILERO Ametralladora / Pistola, Arma CC. (1 | 18) FUSILERO Fusil Combi / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 10) FUSILERO (Sanitario) Fusil Combi ( | MediKit) / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 12) FUSILERO Fusil Combi / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 10) SHONA CARANO Subfusil, Nanopulser(+1R), Pulso Flash / Pistola, Arma CC EXP. (0 | 27) BØYG Lanzamisiles / Pistola Pesada, Arma CC Shock. (1.5 | 47) AGNES Subfusil, Nanopulser / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 14) TRAUMA-DOC Fusil Combi / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 14) PALBOT Arma CC PARA(-3). (0 | 3) GRUPO 2 5 1 VARG (Observador de Artillería) Lanzacohetes Pesado, Escopeta Ligera, Pulso Flash / Pistola, Arma CC. (1.5 | 25) BLADE FTO (Ingeniero, Sentido Táctico) Subfusil, Cargas-D ( | GizmoKit) / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 24) VARG (Minador) Fusil de Precisión K1, Minas Shock / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 30) FUSILERO (Observador de Artillería) Fusil Combi, Pulso Flash ( | Repetidor de Posición) / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 12) FUGAZI DRONBOT Pulso Flash / Arma CC PARA(-3). (0 | 7) 5.5 CAP | 298 Puntos Abrir en Infinity Army First was played for Highly Classified vs Druzze and Capture and Protect vs Caledonian. Second was played against O-12, supremacy. I went second against Druzze, I deploy my pure Nisse fireteam... far away of his HMG in pure druzze fireteam, so I took advantage of range. Even I put the HMG too pointing to the HMG. First order, 3 shoots to snipper nisse, (2 shoots to 16 vs 3 to 9) 2 to hmg nisse (2 shoots to 10 vs 2 to 9), outcome... HMG nisse uconscious, Druzze alive. Second order, Nisse Snipper was obliterated. Then he managed to move the core to do 2 objectives. I spend most of my turn to go with Uma, Machinist and Paramedic Nisse to reach the druzze fireteam (hmg, hacker, regular + 2 diggers) since it was behind a wall in perfect line. I showed up with the nisse, he did "dodge" I used light shotgun with burst 3... hmg druzze died and one digger got one wound. I tried again, regular druzze died, digger died, I ran out of orders. I was lucky to kill the LT, so he barely managed to kill my paramedic nisse. Then I tried to do 1 mission. I expend 5 orders with my hacker... Then with the other group, "Uma" from the top of a roof I remove a few pieces since I couldn´t to kill too much because he would be in retreat. Fortunately I managed to do all objectives in my last turn. Finally I won, but not because my "firepower was greater", I lost the face to face even when I was better in ARO. My snipper should have killed the druzze hmg, but it didn´t. I was lucky enought not to have to dean with too many ARO pieces, thanks to "be playing" one grou for first turn, and lucky enough my rival did a mistake when positioning the fireteam I could exploit. Second match it was similar, I went second. I placed my fireteam in one corner of the table, looking at McMurrogh. He rolled for last miniature, Uxia. It did "move" + "move", then "inaction", I declare dodge, knowing my fusiliers haris could shoot at her... Nisse HMG was killed, snipper survived. Then I was lucky to survive to coordinated of catheran snipper, 2. The one without face to face failed and my flashpulse managed to stunt it. Then it came McMurrogh, I have 3 chances dodge against nisse snipper, unable to kill McM. When I won, he saved, or I failed both shoots. Then when he was on chain rifle I tried to dodge with Nisse snipper and shoot with haris, flashpulse and lone fusilier, he choosed to use smoke... then McM. was killed. So, my nisse survied not for having "firepower superiority" but because rival take the wrong choice. In my turn I was capable to bring back the HMG since it was only unconscious and to kill the Catheran, with the haris I managed to kill the Mormaer HMG in 5 member fireteam. After thanks to flashpulses arrival in reinforcement I was capable to resits their reinforcement a wulver haris with Isabel. Mk12 lost face to face agains flash pulse, (shooting beyond optimal range for mk12 plus cover did the trick). Then in my second turn finally "superior firepower" worked. So I managed in my last turn to catch the beacon. Third Game, I lost one more time Initiative roll, but rival choose for deployment, so I went first. I managed to kill a couple of troupes and to placed "boyg and shona" almost in "enemy deployment zone". Karhu in 5 member fireteam take control in the other flank. I lost face to face against Omega HMG, but boyg was successful with his save rolls, but failed guts. Same happened with HMG fusilier. Without too many orders my enemy wasn´t capable to get out of the deployment zone. Reinforcement incoming wasn´t too much better. Boyg managed to kill a couple of new comers and vargars did the rest. Karhu even managed to do a wound to Omega HMG. In my third turn only 1 pulse flash, omega and Alpha remain on the table. So they was impossible to my rival to take more quadrants, not even to tie. So, while face to face were ok, I was lucky my rival went for deployment instead going first. While I´m enjoying to play Winter, I´m aware I did things well, but I had too luck not related to dice rolling but bad choices from rival, which is the less frequent luck. So, this is an example how you can see Winter winning games, so missing the issues, but in fact, issues are there. However, I will keep playing Winter.
` When this kind of comments come from the moderator itself is when I realize this discussion is hopeless. Except from the first statement everything else is a blatant lie. I've tried to stay moderately positive despite Pano's marked limitations, but these kinds of posts make me want to throw away all positivity and go ballistic. Again. I'll talk about MO, and I don't care about the rest of the sectorials. I play more than half of the games with them and is the sectorial I know best. Also, being the most popular Pano sectorial makes MO a good "ambassador" for Pano in the point I'm about to make. Linkability in MO is a fucking catastrophe. Trying to build pure core fireteams in MO is an exercise in frustration and futility. The only "oppression" a fireteam in MO can exercise may come from that aberration Crusade fireteam, 153 points in its cheapest variant just to have the HMG guy shooting at 17s without distance mods (that would get cancelled anyway by cover). No visors, no marksmanship, no mimetism, no other skills or special equipment for "the best shooting faction in the game". Pit that against a Moiras core from Bakunin (aka "totally not the best shooting faction of the game"). To begin with, Moiras have tons of units to choose from and still keep the fireteam pure. For 120 points the HMG Moira can shoot at 15s, 2 less than te HMG guy in the Crusade fireteam, but wait. She has mim -6, she benefits from the LT order and also has Number 2 if everything goes south for them. So now after running our numbers again, the HMG Moira is still shooting at 15s for 120 points, while our HMG Hospitaller is shooting at 11s for 153. Let's max out our possibilities in this example, let's change the HMG guy for Joan and that sweet base BS15 she has. I'll take the mobility armor version basically because the Spitfire is still more or less a competent weapon against a HMG. Although I'll still need to put her in range, the odds are way better than trying to maneuver her into multi-rifle distances. The point cost of my fireteam goes up to 166, but I'll be able to fight the Moiras more or less on equal terms, right? Actually no, they'll still roll 15s to hit while Joan will go at 12s. Let's change the tactic, let's keep our Moira core fireteam as it is, but in MO we'll build a dedicated anti Moira fireteam centered around a specialized anti mimetism unit. Only three options, Konstantinos, the HRL Black Friar and the Spitfire Crosier. Konstantinos is automatically out, his combi-rifle lacks range and punch to be a serious candidate. The Crosier with the spitfire will start way out of range, and while I'll be willing to move Joan to firing position, mainly because she has ARM 3 and 3 wounds and can tank a hit or two, the same doesn't apply to the crosier who will need extraordinary luck to reach good firing distance against the Moira at the cost of several orders. We are only left with the humble HRL Black Friar, let's build around that unit. The HRL has the same rangeband as the HMG. Good start here. So, the cheapest Crosier-Black Friar core comes at 69 points. Not bad. But it's not pure. The Black Friar will be hitting at 14s against the Moiras 15s. At least in this example, we're not paying more than 50% of the points of the whole list. And basically that's it. The only scenario in which MO could be able to outshoot the Moiras core is if I can move the spitfire crosier into good distance to shoot at 16s. We can repeat this scenario with a Dakini core for better odds for MO in the mods department but way more depressing news in the points department. So the conclusion for this very long post, the "cheap firepower option" is not in the same league, even in the same galaxy, of other factions pure fireteams. The "old Pano firepower" options struggles to keep up with other pure fireteams a) being too expensive or b) needing an investment in orders to have the advantage that the other fireteams don't need to make. In the end it's all about maths. Pano's +1BS cannot compensate +3BS from a pure core fireteam or a -3 or -6 from mimetism. And now to really finish this long post, self-criticism is not a sign of weakness or a sign that something was done wrong, it is a sign of recognition that something that was done one way could have been done better. But as long as it is not recognized that there are indeed many handicaps, ridiculous design outlines and limitations in Pano and you try to defend all its shortcomings with fallacious arguments, we cannot have a serious conversation about the matter.
That is nothing else but true. Can we also add the fact that Bakunin has a very strong midfield, excellent hackers within the moira fireteam, and the capability to spam pitchers? So we’re not only even speaking about pure firepower (where, as you highlighted, Bakunin outshines PanO), but also about the core versatility. Without even talking about, as mentioned, better midfield, warbands, hacking capabilities, and even better lieutenants structure (good NCO) And the same can be said about Morats by the way. Same story. Exceptional sniper, exceptional hard ARO, exceptional hacker protected by a Tinbot, pitcher spam, excellent PH for dodge. Again, more versatile core, and backed by excellent warbands, midfield, alpha strikers, better lieutenants, better paratroopers etc etc
I think the problem here isn't mimetism but lethality of AROs. Infinity is a game where artillery strikes are used to kill flies. MO is just fine, it's just that active turn non-TI HI is at a bad place at the moment. You just need to run Tikbalang instead of aggressive core fireteam. Also play reinforcement game where enemy has less options to counter Tikbalang attack run.
You are correct and what you say is reminiscent to something I said when the bulleteer was nerfed. PanO is becoming more and more “just run a tag and stfu), because, reality is that in the end, except for the Avatar, the only thing where PanO is without doubts better than the others, is their Tags. But that’s a bit of a shame to restrict so much the lists and game style.
Infinity has always been about Rambos killing defenceless stuff. If you don't like that play another game. In N3 you had fishdude shotgun tricks and Sheskin fatality killing everyone. Somehow people weren't complaining about that too much. Ofc it's kinda funny with all of those HI profiles with long and cool backstories just getting rekt by a lineguy with missile launcher or a competively prized TAG that just happens to ignore all terrain with it's large base and movement skills. Pano has never been in a better place (if you play reinforcement mode where GML is nerfed).
I tend to disagree that “it should be this way, cope with it or play a different game” A competitive list is a list that has several potential solutions to a potential problem. And relying only a Tag is not what “makes Infinity Infinity” nor a competitive list. And certainly not in a world where linked Pitchers in a pure fireteam that can isolate your tag turn 1 easily without too much effort exist. Yes you will have champions as queen pieces, but all the other units have a role to fulfil. If you’re playing with 1 queen and only peons, lose your queen and you have no plan B. That’s not fun nor good game design, specially when a lot of sectorials have very efficient “queen (tags) killers”
