@Bignoob I get that it is frustrating that PanO cannot always apply the "bigger gun" as it is their supposed niche. But hyperbole about the situation situation clouds your point. You first said it would take PanO 10 orders to take down a linked Suryat. Many have shown that to be an exaggeration. They you follow that 10 with "half of your orders" which is another exaggeration. This just hurts your argument. As many has said already in the thread, it is harder and harder to "apply big gun." Our tags are great and can still brute force many issues. But I can understand it being limiting.
Absolutely. I concur I made a too big hyperbole and then said that others are making hyperboles. I accept to be smitten by Joan holy fist.
Hello, a couple of days without looking... too many messages. Happy to see it. I hope not to miss any message. I didn´t try to trick you the other day with my message, Gunnar is a profile too expensive for what it is... "Pano style", however the Tactical Awareness Order is a useful, too the thing he isn´t bad at CC, at least is a thread for other CC experts, plus shoots relatively well while linked, that +1Damage it has some use. For me is a "jack of all trades" which usually do a lot of works in late game. He can push that button, stealing the console from the enemy plus it is more or less good to keeping the enemy away. Even, if he activated "frenzy" could have an extra order. To me granted several times the opportunity to "activate" and go for the hidden specialist or even the enemy Lt thanks to climbing plus. Or I put him in suppressive fire. However, when he did some useful work was 2º or 3º turn. Mostly 3º. The problem right now is the ITS extra, about the "Blade", we will see... What I mean, keep trying, for sure you will find him a place. Sadly, in this case I strongly disagree, but because Pano isn´t even +1 BS... That could be the case years ago. While N4 allow Pano new profiles with BS13, so maybe in average it is still the +1BS, but like I always said, to have 9-10 profiles with BS15 but being able to put one on the field, same other armies with BS15 profiles can do... But let us to forget for a few about BS superiority, since isn´t something "too useful" anymore and differences are now too narrow. About "stacking", yes, but being in the "template edition" to have mimetism isn´t the great thing it was... unless you don´t have access to that cheap extra templates profiles. About plan B or C... I think is a way to see it, but don´t delusion our selfs... Usually for Pano plan B means pretty much same as Plan B, and Plan C is same as A and B but probably worse or with lower % of success. Yes, on the paper you have a lot of tools... but if you have one of that tools, you will have a big lack of other options on the table. You commented coordinated order, with panzerfaust... to which cost? Which profiles have those? Even if were a good thing to try, not in Pano, this means pretty much any other army could use same tactic against "karhu" or "kamau", but more or less same % of success, and probably less penalties. About the Guarda de Asalto... I take it instead the Tikbalang in my lists, but that was back in time, a long long ago... but now, with the cost he had, so many enemy pieces with memetism, too many extra cheap templates... is really expensive, and to be confident on smoke to 10s... is a really really poor strategy. It could happen you hit on the first order, that you never places that smoke... What I said, Pano has Plan C= Plan B and Plan B=Plan A, usually going every time worse. Someone told something about wildparrots... yes, at 0.5 SWC, in a unit which is deployed base to base with the limit of the table, outside enemy deployment zone... so, good luck reaching the "needed point". Same with Locust, good luck trying to reach the point. Yes, maybe you could go wild and try "move+deploy" while crossing fingers to not loose 25 or more points... In somthing could or not could work. Sadly too many things are going to that. "bullet+evo", I guess this is why the "point cost was increased", but again, you need around 40 points and 1.5 swc, with an extra order for marksmanship to "have a good option". ¿How many pay other factions to have viable options? I think this is the point. I agree, Winterforce is fun because you can play a lot with fireteams, an extra level outside the table, which you can use to take advantage, plus a lot of profiles which allow us to play with the terrain, Vargars, Shona, Karhus, even Gunnar. And now with new cards which have terrains... Winter is sometimes really useful for that bunch of profiles with terrain. About the bulltrack shooting a pure fusiliers fireteam... I don´t know but to do a wound to that "snipper" is close to 50%, it doesn´t need more. Probably it will take 1 or maybe 2 orders to finish the "fusilier". Big gun approach is overrated... What is the cost to have those "big guns"? That is the problem. Varuna can play the Cutter. Is good? Of course. But when I´m not playing Pano, when I know my rival is playing a cutter, if the table isn´t a really really bad table for me, I smile, because usually they are too many ways to neutralize the cutter or to low his performance. Lately I play a lot the ML Boyg... yes, in haris... yes, he can do a lot of harm... but if I go first I will cross my fingers, because if I have mimetism in front of me... I need to go with other options, maybe nisse, maybe karhu... 1 wound... maybe not well placed because I needed to cover other points... So I will need extra orders in one way or other... So, "i will loose" the "big gun" force only for not having enough orders. Even if I put him as ARO piece, 1 impact, even when they do no harm, guts do the trick, VOL12, no courage, no nothing.
As a Bultrak user I can assure you it is going to take an average of 2 to 3 orders to take down a pure linked sniper of base BS 12 in profile or more that is behind partial cover. You have a 46.5% chance of taking him down in your first order. Which may happen. But it is not the expected result. EDIT: A Zeta, with BS 14, would require in fact 1 or 2 orders in average to take down such pure linked sniper, as he jumps now to 51'2% to wound the sniper. And the Tikbalang, with BS 15, would require 1 order to take him down, with the occasional 2, as he has a 56.4% chance of wounding him.
Why are we hyperfocusing on the Suryat? The biggest issue with the Morats, beyond their abomination of a fire team chart, is the Yogurt MSR. It turns off conventional AROs and gives the Morats player the run of the table in their own active. While you can deal with it in your own active if you have specific super high end gunfighting peices under ideal conditions, the non-ideal nature of a real game works against you here. As soon as you are on a real table and Yogurt is posted outside HMG range or a Dartok drops a repeater in the general vicinity or whatever - maybe there just isn't a good corner close enough that you can take the fight from without having to expose yourself on the way there - the odds tilt against you fast. And naturally you don't have indirect tools like White Noise to lock him down, or work around him. Obviously it's not going to guarantee you loose the game (on its own) but it's an extreme advantage to be had for relatively cheap when combined with the other baked-in advantages. The combination of Dartoks and warbands can easily take control of the midfield and leave you vulnerable to being cleaned up or just stalled until you loose on points. Compared to that, the Dartoks, and the usualy suite of creatures + Ikadrons, Suryats honestly seem fair. No, he's spending 0 points, because the Morat Core gives him pure link bonuses for taking stuff he wanted anyway. But he might want the Vanguard Paramedic to stand the Yogurt back up if doesn't feel like paying a princely 22 points for a CA Gigadoctor.
You’re taking words out of my mouth. I couldn’t have said it better. Playing PanO against Morats really feels like a super uphill battle. So… when deploying, if I play second… Check notes: - can’t put my Kamau/Bolt/Nisse SR in hard ARO because it will be obliterated by the Yaogat - need to leave my Tag very very far away because I don’t want to get pitchered by a Dartok shooting 2 pitchers with full core FT bonus - need to carefully place my paper thin midfield so that: it won’t get obliterated by a swarm of Gakis, or any of the insane warbands of that faction, nor pitchered by the dartok if using peacemakers. - but at the same time, I can’t leave any space because I don’t want my core to be alpha striked by a swarm of Gakis, and with all the impetuous, Tac Awareness, +1 Lt orders, and Strategos and all that crap they can throw well over 10 orders on turn 1. So.. checking notes again. Wasn’t I supposed to be shooty one? So why am I hiding like a coward? ;) Ok I’ll stop there. I already said it once and didn’t stop, but now I promise I’m stopping. Anyway, bottom line, when playing against MAF, I take my Cutter or Ulhan, because the rest just won’t hold. And then I pray to play first so that I can throw an alpha strike with my tag, and out them back in Camo. Because in the end, they remain the best tool to outgun them, and with their superior mobility there is more than enough room to wreak some havoc. Alternatively, if I play MO, I spam Minelayer trinitarians. They are by far the best bet against MAF.
The Suryat is, IMO, a much better ARO piece. It is harder to disable/dislodge than a Yaogat. A pure lined Yaogat is a great active turn piece, but it is still only a single wound model that is vulnerable to shock.
Context is important. The more an individual invests in a bigger gun means the less likely they are to have alternate AROs. They are just force concentrating their capabilities into higher tier capabilities. What does the rest of the force look like and how much are they leaning on this capability? What happens once this ARO crumples under sustained assault? The Suryat is akin to the Kamau of N3. The MSV1 and High BS bonuses realistically is designed to screen against smoke users. Maybe give it a little bit of survivability against some TAGs. The Warband and the Skirmisher is probably its ideal target set and looks to punch down. Sure they can then double tap that core with a Yaogat or Kaitok but Suryat is the middle ground between the two. Is the Suryat your only true obstacle to establishing Fire Superiority? If so then invest those orders
You’re actually being quite smart. This is good practice. Everyone shoots. What you are doing is leveraging the game fundamentals which PanO leans into. PanO is controlled application of firepower to establish fire superiority.” You combined good game fundamentals with target prioritisation and unit protection. Let the other factions break the rules of the game. Dominate them through not respecting their stuff once you go on the offensive.
@Urobros I think I will make a few threads with me trying things out on the sectorials I play and catalogue my ideas, experiments and how they worked, I am sure sooner or later Gunnar will click on me. While I agree that there are a lot of direct templates around, our MSV+mimetism units should not be engaging the enemy in template range but outside of them, I still think PanO has an excellent firepower advantage and can reliably depend on the high BS to remove troubling issues, yes, a few units in other armies can achieve comparable results but not at the extend PanO can reliably output. I think its my almost auto include in every list, even in Druze... I am not sure if I should start playing without it because of how dependent I have become to it... is SWF I even take Agnes for the +1BS, its mobility and firepower has cleared many difficult situations the past few months. My problem with PanO plan B and C is not that they are dependent on firepower that is progressively worse because plan B and C trigger from heavy firepower units been removed, but more on how to maneuver secondary units, it is not impossible, for example I have used KHD users to create a semi camouflage marker and cross gaps, Vargars to super jump were I needed to be avoiding troubled areas, Crabbot to take over objectives, but there is no deny that sometimes it feels a lot more work and thinking outside of the book than what I would do when playing with a more conventional faction.
Except with how Infinity works, the more rules of the game you can break, the more powerful your faction is. You're not describing a faction which has to be played with a certain amount of finesse, you're describing a faction which is less powerful. If you don't respect the fact that your opponent has a massive unearned advantage from the listbuilding stage in Infinity, based on whether or not the design team likes their faction, you will lose in a lot of circumstances.
This is the crux of the issue. It's not brought up very often, but outside the generic Fireteam and Coordinated Order options PanO is the faction with the least activations in the game. TacAware only goes on TAGs outside the very newest stuff, almost no impetuous, absolutely no enhanced LT options, and a poor starting midfield to boot with low numbers of expensive Infiltrators. If Plan A fails, not only do you have to solve a problem with a worse tool, but you have to get that tool into position with Orders that are more valuable to you than anyone else. This problem only gets worse if you have to deal with a problem you don't have an answer to- Hacking is the most common issue, but some mixed-"pure" Fireteams that are quite affordable can outgun all but PanO's best and deny long lanes while close-in environments filled with Templates are a nightmare for your expensive and fragile gunfighters. You have to get more done with less positioning flexibility than any other faction in the game, including the likes of CA who are supposed to be elite, and the vanishingly small advantage you get on direct shooting doesn't cut it. Your Specialists are less reliable, your Hackers are often a whole MOD bracket down compared to their opposition, and there are whole game mechanics you simply don't have access to. Winning games against certain (very common) list archetypes as PanO requires absolute mastery of movement, or really weird skews, or both. I don't think it's a good spot for a faction to be in.
We have been through this several times, most people disagree with your view, and repeating your opinion about faction favoritism in every thread is tiresome. Please stop.
I partially agree, or partially disagree, I play with a lot of sectorials and factions, and not many can have their "Plan A" be "shoot the opposition to oblivion" especially as efficient as a PanO sectorial, so I can understand the various tradeoff PanO gets, the problem, if you will, is PanO is a great faction when you start and figure out the game and a challenging faction when you are experienced and game against equally experienced players, and the shift is much more prominent than other factions, as you said PanO requires the player to have a good mastery of movement, positioning and order efficiency, on the same note I feel my experience with playing with other factions (especially their strength and weaknesses) comes more into play when I play with PanO than it comes when I play with other factions. PanO (and its sectorials) have the tools to work with a plan B that involves a mobile close range game and plan C that involves a purely positional objectives gameplay, but such tools may be less obvious and I feel definitely need more out of the box thinking, I think PanO is the only faction I used a TAG or a Sepulcher knight as a mobile cover to cautious move to a console and interact with it without been seen.
I only have one issue with Pan O and it is one that can only be solved by adding more to it. So, in the lore Pan O has 3 major religions but it feels very Christian, this is because most sectorials have Christian iconography in their symbols or units associated with the Christian faith. This gives the impression an impression that Christianity dominates Pan O culture, which from reading the fluff is not what I think CB was going for. If I am wrong then it does not matter.
I think commenting on the continuing differential amount of attention, care, and power given to different factions will continue to be relevant until it's not. Also, I don't seem to remember any survey about people disagreeing with my view.
Well, remember in the lore all the SEA Muslims converted to Christianity and forgot about Islam. It's really awkward and hamfisted the way Gutier wrote it, I'm not sure what his intent was.
I know you are talking about Nomads, but don't you play Combined Army? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black lol.
Forgot about that but also was not talking about that. Rather I was touching on the Sikh or Hindi religion or other cultural influences. For instance there are Croc men from Māori and Sikhs Commando are Sikhs but how many different knight/Christians are there? I think I am counting 15, 14 if you do not include the Swiss Guard (which you could argue are Christian because they guard the Pope). One of which is even a TAG, you may not like the Seraph but it is rooted in Christianity. If you only look at those not in MO you still get 4 or 5. Let's see: Varuna and Aconocemento can take Montasia Knight Winterfor can take Knight of Justice, Knight Hospitaler, and the MO mechanic NCA has the Swiss Guard When someone tells me they see Pan O as White Christian I can tell them they are wrong but some of it is the flavor that overrides everything else. By the way the NCA and Acon faction symbol have Christian Iconography in them which only reinforces that view.
