The discussion in the PanO megathread about "trash" units got me thinking about units that are considered subpar or not cost-effective due to inefficient profiles or profile fragmentation (valuable skills/equipment are split across multiple profiles - the opposite of Shang Jisus or the Super Evader). This becomes particularly noticeable when trying to build fireteams. What units do you feel fall in this category and how would you fix them? The Rules You may only propose one unit You may not add any skills or equipment not already available in a profile for that unit You may not end up with more profiles than the current unit: if you add one, one must go No profile cost changes, the profile will cost whatever it costs My Pick Haqqislam Jannisary Proposed changes: Add HMG Lt. profile Add Doctor Lt. profile Remove AP rifle tinbot profile Remove plain boarding shotgun profile Add tinbot to Doctor and ML profiles EDIT: Added emphasis to the rules. This is supposed to be challenge not a wishlist
Only one unit? You mad lad! Fine. Shang-Ji, just because you used it as an example. Fix: TacAware and Tinbot on all profiles. Remove the plain HMG profiles. Remove the 3 "empty" multi rifle profiles. Reason: this is a fireteam leader unit, and I think this is to be encouraged, while it is not a good idea to have Lieutenant options from a sectorial design perspective. Shang-Jisus is one of very very few heavy infantry profiles without Frenzy or Impetuous that work well, and it is all off the back of stacking quality multiplier abilities of AP, Tinbot and that extra order. Bonus: Hac Tao NCO for all, for all the same reasons!
Ninjas. Replace Dodge (+1") with Dodge (+3). It's fine if they dance around without getting far, but they should be good at dancing around.
Cube Jaeger. Currently utterly pointless in the factions that can take it Suggestion; Remove monofilament CC weapon, gain basic CCW. Remove a couple of points and 0.5swc from all profiles.
Pan O - Orcs Proposed changes: Remove all Combi/Multi and BSG profiles without tinbot Add Lt. to Multi profile Add all profiles in Varuna/SWF Versions Make Varuna and SWF profiles sectorial only
Caledonia Mormaer: -Change Dogged to NWI. That's all. But if im allowed to dream: - Add a profile with Rocket launcher (light or heavy, i dont care) - Add a profile with MSV1 - Make Mormaer linkable (not pure fireteam, obviously) with volunteers instead of the Grey Rifles, or even wildcard. - Make all the profiles NCO All of this with the corresponding points increase
I think worth pointing out that it's one of the few basic heavy infantry without Frenzy/Impetuous that work well. There are plenty of HI troops without those rules that get by just fine, but they're usually layered with plenty of more unique rules to make them worth their points. Also, NCO on all Hac Tao profiles would be an absoulte blessing. As things stand, all the others outside of it may as well not even exist. Which is a shame, because it's not like the others would be problematic (or even taken over the NCO HMG anyway) with it. I'd like to consolidate some Wu Ming profiles into something more useful, but they're just so thoroughly trash at this point that it's going to take a lot more than that to pull them from the trash bin. Cranes would benefit from having Sensor on all profiles, especially the hacker (which is the only remotely viable profile), but they're still about 10 points too expensive, and that added nugget of utility wouldn't save him.
I should only talk about YJ since I’m still new to O12 and Aleph. My metric for this is somewhat the question “would I take this in vanilla?”. Most of the below, I would not. Haidao Remove Combi Add Doctor or Paramedic Hulang To much to mention. Add tinbot, berserk, Change monofilament to EXP or AP+DA. Add Limited Camo version. Add Frenzy to bring cost down. Bao Add specialists and guns Pheasant Wildcard in ISS Tian Gou Count as troops they are with in WB Zhangying Sensor and/or Triangulated fire on all Jujak Add Immune Continuous Damage Yan Huo Delete Bioimmunity and give BTS6, Or give BTS 6 and KEEP Bioimmunity! Also add Triangulated fire or Marksmanship. Zhencha More. Weapons, skills, anything. Wu Ming Add Frenzy Crane 6-2 Move, Frenzy, Berserk, Tactical Aware Note: I essentially want the Frenzy cheat that Riot Grrls, Asawira, others get to be cheaper and then ignore the damn thing because they are in a fireteam. Kunai BS12 or marksmanship. Something to live up to the name! Who the hell takes this guy on a regular basis? Kanren Madtraps on all of them. Add Counterintelligence A profile with Impersonation Jin Qo Infiltration or FD, and camo version Qiang Gao Change BS +1 Dmg to something like Continuous Damage or something to make him a different choice to the Shang Ji AP+Shock HMG. Maybe ARM5 and NWI? Bioimummunity? Heavy Shotgun version? Sun Tze HI Add Counterintelligence Make Wildcard Put Stratego skill only on the Lt. Sun Tze MI Needs to be almost as good and cheaper than Atalanta. Right now not as good and more expensive. Add Counterintelligence Add marksmanship or Mimetisim Put Stratego skill only on the Lt.
I think you missed the point of the thread here. This isn't about reworking entire trooper lines, but consolidating them.
This is actually a good tangent to the my original intent of the thread. There are a quite a few profiles in Infinity that are the clear standouts amongst their unit, which may as well mean that the lesser profiles don't even exist. This creates perceived choice even when there is no practical reason to choose anything else and I feel contributes to the profile and model bloat that the game has experienced over the past 10 years. I bet there are some profiles that have never been played in an ITS tournament. Thank you for jumping in on that, I'm going back to edit the OP to bold the rules. It seems some people just read the first question and needed to vent.
I totally agree that sectorial specific profiles should not be available to vanilla. But I also really wish CB applied the sectorial specific profiles to more units in more factions. Its a cool way to balance specific factions without having to create another unit type that overlaps 90% with an existing unit in vanilla. One of the more niche sectorial specific profiles (that I didnt even realize existed until recently) is the Druze mim-3 MULTI sniper, only available in DBS.
Since you have a detailed knowledge of YJ, what would be your one unit to fix with profile combination/simplification?
Well @Mahtamori already gave some good examples. I had one that the Combi Haidao is pretty useless. There's a few that you almost always take the specialist over a non-spec, but there's a few times were you want the non for missions you get extra pts. for killing specialists. Right now I think that's only one mission? Unfortunately YJ needs a bit of an overhaul to make it more up to date. They have whole troops that are useless rather than just certain profiles.
A very basic one, but it comes up often: remove FTO from Black Friars. Fireteams that can take a Black Friar can now take any of the profiles. This would breathe new life into the sniper profile. Alternatively (or perhaps additionally), take Discover (+3), Biometric Visor, Albedo, and Sixth Sense out of their respective individual profiles and give them to all profiles.
Fully agreed. I think most profiles have been played at an ITS tournament, though perhaps not for the best reasons. One could be essentially the last trooper and it fit the points, another could be that the player is experimenting or completely new. I also think that people who have been "maining" a faction will have a laundry list. I didn't go for the unit that I personally think needs the most help to be competitive (nor the one I cheated with). To add to this, I don't think units necessarily need to be competitive, but they do need to fill a role. Factions creates scarcity, and in scarcity the intentionally less "good" units can still play a role if this is done intentionally, so that the whole of the faction can offer list choices that are competitive. Problem is, you can't have factions that are entirely post-scarcity, or that are designed with no less "good" units that are necessary, at the same time, or you will just make the factions that are forced to make trade-offs be inherently worse or with a much narrower set of missions where they shine. Aw. Didn't even mention Yan Huo. Go on, that one has so much room for crazy, fix our bestest biggest bois! :)
Vanilla may be not the problem for the sectorial-Orcs. The list of Orc-Profiles is just too long. And there should be no Winter Orc in the sunny Varuna ;-) I also stumpled over the missing Druze Sniper (maybe because its more or less Jethro from the comic). But in genreal I am okay with different availability in sectorials or other armys. I hope you mean the basic combi and not all armed with combi? CoC and Engineer are very useful. At least 21 pts Haido can do HI classified, sabotage and can be back up for blowing up some objectives.
Correct. i don't think I'd ever take the plain combi. Sure he's cheap but taking a little cheaper don't really give me back anything. Especially if it's IA. I've never tried the Red Fury. It's overshadowed by the specialists and sniper.
Apsaras remdriver... make it give +3Melee, +2BS and +1WP to the target remote so there is some reason to use her bonus in something else than a Dakini, and also make it link in the OperationS fireteam as a Dakini. OR, be more loyal to the lore, and make it a "haris" of 1 apsaras and 2 Dakini that work like the puppetactica (only instead of the puppeteer and 1-3 remotes, with those remotes needing to stay close together, we get the Apsaras and 2 "tuned" dakinis with Melee 15, BS13 and WP14 that provide a single order among them, but don't get D/C if the Apsaras dies, only if all three die, and those that get ISOlated or out of the pointman's ZoC). Dakinis' weapons could be a Mk12 and Breaker combi for example.
