Only a couple of pages into the thread, but this topic is seeing an unusually high amount of consensus on the issues. It's pretty rare to have such a majority of players weigh in and all say 'yeah this is a problem' or 'this is fine' when it comes to N4. - comm link overhaul - missions catering for reinforcements - reinforcement arrival being mandatory Seem to be very popular opinions.
Played few games with new reinforcements + a tournament is on the way. Pros: New stuff! Lots of new stuff! New Rules! Amazing. Now gray matter in my head has to think out of the box to build lists. Awesome! Shasvastii are playable. Holy Molly. Drop pod is a piece of terrain. Create lof blocking stuff where needed. Great. Cons Commlink tax. As a CA player 24pts 0.5 swc is a lot to pay. Vanilla especially, Sectorials - not so much. I was hoping for Skiavoro comlink whatever. :( And just few takes from real life experience. Majority can be wrong. Decisions that are right can be frustrating for a lot of people, but in the end, those people are not you, they dont know the whole situation. But fully ignoring feedback is also not great.
Oh yeah. Please unify and clarify what the drop marker is and how big it is This might seem like an artsy detail that should be left to player creativity, but if there's one thing that can have a huge impact on the game it is whether the drop marker is a Marker, Token, or Scenery. 1. Does it even remain on the table once deploying forces are done? 2. Does it block line of sight? How big is it? (Just a bottom radius is not enough!) 3. Does it stop enemy movement on contact? 4. Does it provide cover? (5. If all above are yes, would it not make sense if it can be shot and destroyed?) These are all questions that have a huge and disproportionate affect on the game. Allowing a player to eliminate LOF of a difficult sniping position, provide a convenient spot they can Cautious Move to where the map designer specifically didn't want it, block inconvenient enemy movement, or create a firing position for your own troopers - and it really should not be decided by the artistic... surprises... of the other player.
My Suggestions for Commlink Commlink unit can use Place Deployable skill to deploy Commlink device like mines. (1 use, Can't be done by ARO) deployed Commlink device lets you do this : On your reinforcement step, if you have deployed Commlink device, You can place Drop Pod token within ZoC of deployed Commlink device. Regardless of lost points or rounds. (Instead of ZoC, Maybe dispersion can be used for Drop Pod placement.) Once you deployed Drop Pod token, you can deploy Reinf troops as usual. If opponent destroyed your deployed Commlink device or your Commlink device is Isolated, At the beginning of your 3rd round, you will have Reinf troops regardless of lost points. If you haven't deployed your Commlink device, follow current casualty/3rd round rules. Basic idea of this suggestion is, make use of Commlink troopers and make another active(not passive) method for calling up reinforcement. If you deploy Commlink device and protect it, you get reinforcement on 2nd round.
1st game of reinforcement behind. Got destroyed completely. Tried to game the mission (read: choosing to go 2nd and win by bumrushing to center during last turn) by delaying my reinforcements to turn 3 (when I could have deployed them during 2nd turn), so everything went as it should. - Camomarkers are better (beause of less orders, sensors, msv and teams) - LT hunting is more important (because of less personal protective measures and points) - Infiltration is better (because of less orders) - AROs are better (because of less orders, msv, teams and GML) - Reinforcements didn't seem to do much when you know what's inside it and they have waste orders to move. - Don't cross that middle line unless you are packing really high dodge stat. - That feeling when oppressive GML game is gone for good!
I only played on game yet, but have seen a few and read a lot of discussions. So my 2 cents: + CB asking for feedback! Change. I like change. It makes list building playing and watching interesting again. ~ Commlink, I think there were enough comments already. I like that some factions get some army slots back that they needed. I don't like that the distribution of +2 / +1 / 0 was done so even. While i.e. USARF does realy need the +2, I feel Cosmoflot not so much. I read somewhere that the points cost there to prevent taking multiple of these units to boost the REF order pool and/or army slots available. I feel this could be done better that with the point tax. Model release schedule. I understand, it would be too much for CB to release a box for every faction. But many people in our local meta are not interested in the mod (yet), because they don't like proxying. This reduces the likelyhood of a REF game for me a lot. - NA2: The biggest minus for me is the support that NA2 got. No new models, no specialised REF options for JSA and Spiral. Random commlink +1/+2 distribution. JSA especially was the last sectorial that was unique in profiles in style. From the number of players that play JSA there should be room to sell a JSA box alone. A missed opportunity and a turn off for me to play JSA or NA2. Open REF information: Make it hidden information until deployed. I like mindgames and their removal with the 15 trooper limit and how i.e. Mines are deployed now is boring. Mandarory REF deployments: Like written above, make it mandatory once the threshold is reached. Something not directly related to reinforcements, but in general on the new stuff Why was it needed that every vanilla faction now gets a Plasmarifle option? I think bringing certain special options of only some sectorials to the availability of everybody will continue to water down faction identity to a point where we only choose the "skin" of our army The capabilities of a faction are more or less the same.
Thank you so much for the feedback in the thread, and thank you for the way you're explaining your thoughts. Is delightful to read this thread :) We'll keep checking this thread and reading your comments, hoping that you have the opportunity of try it more and playing it in the new season (remember that we've released the rule now, but in the next ITS season will be an optional MOD). Only thing I can comment right now is this one: Unfortunately we cannot produce 8 boxes of 6 miniatures for the same month. I get your point and it would be something supercool, but we need to make the release of this product line in batches of 2 boxes a month.
That's very reasonable, does this mean 2 boxes in consecutive months or there will be non reinforcement release months in between?
You can expect 2 products of Reinforcements almost every month from now on until we complete the product line planned.
I like the idea of reinforcements, I have felt Infinity needed something like it for a while. Pros: It shakes up list building. It softens the skill curve between newer players and veteran players by helping the newer player stay in the game. It has revitalized some stagnant sectorials. Cons: Theme for sectorials got a little washed out by making the reinforcements themed to one current or future sectorial. I play a sectorial for its looks and theme over other sectorials in a faction. So I don't personally enjoy needing to add a second sectorial (or soon to be sectorial) in my list. The profile selection is a little boring for some and not for others. Example: Exrah are boring. Mandatory commlink profile is feels bad. I would have liked to see a more bespoke profile for that. Like O-12's Raveneye would have been a good choice for commlink and a good example of a in lore unit that is supposed to do what the commlink guy does. Units that are meant to direct assets in lore that are also good units you want to take. Generic line troopers with the skill is very uninteresting. Some suggestions: Adding better more interesting commlink units. At the very least the point and swc tax has to go. Adding better themes to the reinforcements for each sectorial individually maybe. An example would be adding Dravot Group profiles to morat reinforcements. Stuff like that. Edit forgot this one: exclusion zones will need to be removed from missions if reinforcements are going to be a part of the game. They should just be removed in general but definitely if reinforcements is being added to the core of the game as they are actively antagonistic to the entire point of reinforcements.
Thank you for summarizing my thoughts perfectly. This has already been said but might as well add my voice to discussion. The issues that force a poor play and theory crafting experience are as follows. 1. The commlinks do not create a compelling list building experience. A mandatory tax just doesn't make sense for a game. Unless we are paying for medical care or retirement for our troops please let us just play a 250 point game of Infinity with reinforcements. Playing around with lists without the tax applied feels more natural and closer to the game I came to enjoy. 2. Almost all of the games in our local store have ended with the reinforcement troops arriving turn three. With the troops arriving so late it doesn't really allow much time for them to do much. Sure they can kill something or capture an objective but for me that feels like it doesn't allow for as much tactical gameplay. 3. Limited reinforcement options across the point spectrum. This really isn't a show stopper but it would be nice to have an irregular 9-12 point option. Of course this is might be a personal wish list item but I thought I would throw it in :-) Overall the new mode has promise and with a few tweaks could be interesting.
I have a catalouge of lists for most missions or general "ideas" of missions. I get that some armys can get hit hard with the 250 main limitation but for me there was virtually no problem (pano/mo). Traded 2 Roadblocks and a backup specialist for another kind of specialist and a pod full of stuff that is potent. Lists were already stuffed with minelayers, hackers, repeaters and all the fun zoc denial n4 has to offer. I like that the commlink option isnt free but would prefer for it to be part of the general mod and only paying for things like (+2/+1/free agent). Pod content: Most Pods can be stuffed with template weapons and CC monsters to reduce any attacker and go into hiding for opponts pod (Feels like a bandaid against alphastrikes). But because they only come AFTER you were hit for 100 points they still have to deal with an active threat at your deployment zone before they can think about countering anything. Without interaction on deployment this turns into blind luck wether you have brought the correct 6-x mov model to wreck opponents past the midline. Several Armys having strong 4 and even clean 5 man links also seems wrong. Sectors that benefit from this can risk a full 5 man and hammer it into the oppponent and then get fresh 4/5 man to follow up on any retaliation. with the bonus of that new 5 man being able to swap lane of approach. The pod occupents can simply avoid any deployed countermeasures with a +12" deployment bonus. Armys with access to +1/+2 modules and tac awarness/nco/strong links can simply nullify the backdraw of the pod being limited in orders. NCA for example can follow up a 5man bolt link with a fresh 5man mixed bolt link. Alphastrikes get more potent. Was my assumption from the start and still holds true after some test games. If your army wasnt prepared on 300 points to deal with an alphastrike it still wont be on 250 points. Thats an even better price point for the alphastriker because they now have to kill less units to push the oppontents main down to 5(+special) orders. You even get rewarded for doing a good job as your opponnent now has to deal with your alphastriker using his pod. If he doesnt and goes for you, well you still got your aros to die for your own pod. And if he kills your alphastriker, that one unit alone will can net you 60+ for most army towards your own fresh pod. Since you know he is coming, your alphastriker can easily be wrapped in 30-40+ points of supporting/aro units. Espcially so with so many tags now being able to link with units/engis. Also the pricepoint of most aro snipers in the game is around 30. which means the one going first really only has to cover his alphastriker with 1 unit to force his opponent into triggering your pod. Control missions dont work wiht reinforcements. but some specialist missions are just as badly effected, depending on your army. you can stuff the pod with the needed specialists > alphastrike with main (see above) > grab mission with pod and retreat/regroup. opponent is now stuck with 2 small order pools and depending on mission out of reach of objectives even if he hard commits and only move/clicks.
I've been testing some games with forced deployment of reinforcements in turn 2 for both players, at this point in time I'm not sure if it's better to deploy both players reinforcements at the same time at the start of the turn (I just tried it once) or at each player's phase, both have cons and pros, but simultaneous deployment seems like it suddenly shows up a second vector for a shootout (diagonal) or a really intense fire lane, while staggered deployment favors a second alpha strike while at the same time punishes heavily the troops that cross over the middle line of the table, the final decision comes, unsurprisingly, from knowing the opponent's reinforcements list. I have also noticed that 360º visors become more relevant, and that Guided is not a good skill to give to troops that can safely arrive at turn 2-3 and start raining fire on marked enemies.
That honestly sounds like the exact opposite would happen, if you force player 2 to drop his reinforcements during player 1's turn, it's giving player 1 the opportunity to alpha the reinforcements after delivering an alpha on the main force. For example, you kill a TAG with a GML and then shoot a TR bot on turn 1, entirely possible scenario. Player 2 is now down about 100 points worth of stuff and has to fight back during his turn with limited forces, he's probably not going to get that much damage inflicted back in return. You then force him to place his reinforcements on the table for you to have first crack and killing again and he just falls further behind. To even have a chance at not getting wiped the reinforcements are going to have to deploy quite far back and this isn't great given most of the reinforcement pools are built around mid field engagements with weapons like Mk12s, Spitfires, high burst shotguns, improved Combis, Flamethrowers etc. If they've already crippled the main force they're free to cripple the reinforcements right after that. Doesn't sound like a good idea because it's so open for a player to just keep increasing momentum because player 2 is forced to deploy their army piecemeal.
After a couple of games: Commlink is a heavy tax that likely needs some change. It's a largely underwhelming profile that eats 8% of your main combat force points, restricting list building to an unnecessarily high degree. Suggestion: Put this on Line troops at no additional points cost and without [+1/+2], so the base tax is kept as cheap as possible. You could even argue to make them entirely free like the ITS-specific bonus profiles. Then also put commlink on other – ideally underutilized – units to give them a little update and a bump. Reserve Special Operative and the bracket bonuses to those units at an additional cost relative to their prevalence is lists. This can also mean it's free for units that are already overpriced. Take Quiang Gao as an example. He's usually considered to be overpriced/outcompeted by a large margin so that he remains underutilized despite having a pretty specific niche of a Veteran HI LT+1 with a decent gun and some hacking protection. Putting Commlink [+2] on him could give players an incentive to use him if they want to make a list with 17 troops. Even better, tie a special reinforcement fireteam to him, similar to how Liang Kai enables the regular shaolin haris. The goal should be to produce diverse lists and archetypes by making these choices, giving some of the weaker profiles a second wind. The reinforcement points threshold seems to be a bit too high. 100 points are too many to reasonably rambo yourself into turn two reinforcements, and also leave too much room to just alpha strike away at your opponent's main combat group without triggering theirs, crippling them to the point where they can never fight back anymore. I'm not sure how to fix this, maybe try lowering the threshold to 75 points or add additional triggers that can be achieved in game. I'm also going to throw this idea at you: Make reinforcements arrival a dice roll, starting on turn one of the second player, that can be modified by certain triggers. You roll against the base WIP of your commlink unit and add MODs: - turn 1 (-6) - lost 75 points worth of units (+3) - lost 100 points worth of units (+3) - commlink trooper is in null state (-3) - have an active controlled jump in place (+3/-3) This way, the choice of commlink unit will have another dimension, similar to the LT roll. It also means you can give players more approaches towards enabling or preventing early reinforcements, bringing this feature more into focus. It would also mean that EVO hackers have another incentive to be used and will present a tactically important target for your opponent to remove. Commlink troops also become a tactically interesting target and the skill cost could be adjusted in points relative to the unit's WIP. Turn 3 reinforcements just drop.
Big issue with this idea is it gives player 1 a significant chance to receive their reinforcements first, regardless of whether they have suffered casualties. It's entirely possible Player 2 will roll on a WIP10 check to see if they get their reinforcements turn 1 meanwhile the following turn player 1 will on average roll on a WIP16 check to see if they get theirs. This is bad and to give an example lets say you have a relatively tight game, both players inflict about 60 points worth of damage on each other with probing attacks turn 1. Player 2 scrubs out his reinforcements because it's literally a coinflip for them. Come turn two Player 1 passes their WIP16/17 check (or in the case of the Avatar autopasses on a 20). Player 1 is now able to initiate an attack with a 100 point force advantage on the table, there's 190 points on the table trying to fend off 290 points attacking them on turn 2 after already losing some of their first ARO pieces. We've gone from a close game to a total blowout advantage and there's relatively little player agency involved in that, it was mostly down to 2 arbitrary dice rolls that heavily favoured one player. A common complaint in this thread is reinforcements are already frequently turning up too late to help the main force, you've also made note of this yourself already. Making this a random effect isn't going to help address those concerns because sometimes dice just hate people.
I see the issue you're describing and those triggers and MODs were just made up on the spot, so they should be tweaked accordingly to circumvent that scenario. Just lowering/deleting the first turn trigger MOD would swing this in favour of player 2, so it's not particularly difficult to control. Also, Avatar and other super WP units should probably not carry commlink in this context. I'd like to see that reserved for now underperforming units.
It really just should not be a random effect, there's too much of the game state riding on it for it to boil down to 1 dice roll and it can and will decide instant win/loss scenarios.
I guess that is a fair point. You can adjust modifiers to the point of eliminating randomness past certain thresholds, but maybe that's just overcomplicating things.
