Hello everyone, disgruntled Johnny here to discuss some general thoughts on Corvus Belli's publication strategy for Infinity the Game. I used to be a Tohaa player and got back into the game with Spiral Corps a little while ago. This thread is informed by complaints I've had with CB's policies for a long while now, and inspired by the recent second discontinuation of Tohaa minis, both times at my expense. There are a number of things CB has kept doing over the years that has eroded my personal faith in the quality and longevity of their products as a whole, and has made certain anti-consumer policies they engage in harder to swallow. I'm shelving my Infinity forces for the foreseeable future but will be keeping an eye out in the hopes things change. What follow are my concerns and grievances that I'd ideally like to see CB address. Obsolescence The Human Sphere is a living, breathing place where things change. This makes narrative sense, but puts players at risk of having their expensive and painstakingly painted miniatures fall into obsolescence. It sucks to have your faction(s) of choice be abandoned for narrative reasons, and it feels worse if it happens for commercial reasons and éven worse if it happens due to seemingly personal animus on CB's part against the mini's you like to play (as in the case of Tohaa and Spiral Corps). The bottom line is that CB has a bad habit of abandoning factions, often before they even get any particular chance to shine narratively (which I care about) or competitively (which I don't). This tendency extends towards particular profiles as well; numerous mini's languish in a lack of any care that might make them more interesting or at least viable to play. Mercenary ranks in particular are just littered with obsolete profiles accompanying outdated and OOP miniatures with no reason to believe they'll ever be updated. Instead, they just sort of exist, cluttering up the Army Builder and bargain bins. This neglectful pattern of behavior makes it difficult for lower-income wargamers like myself to feel confident that the mini's I buy will continue to be useful to some degree, even if a narrative event might mean they're migrated to a different faction (like Spiral Corps for Tohaa, and Kosmoflot for Highlanders could've been). If nothing else, these minis and their profiles should be fieldable as mercenaries or given new profiles entirely. I understand CB makes money from selling new minis and not from updating old ones, but surely we've learned at this point that if you foster a good relationship with your customers they'll instead end up spending money on more of your other products as second, third and fourth armies in a game they love and a company they trust? Proxying The catalogue of profiles that don't have dedicated sculpts expands seemingly every day, made worse by a legacy policy of sculpting different models for every different loadout! CB seems to want to offer a What You See Is What You Get (WYSIWYG) release model, but can't even manage a One Size Fits All (OSFA) one. For a company that's this established I'm beyond the point where I can excuse this, especially as a Johnny player who really cares about the thematic and visual coherence of the games I play. Please CB, just adopt an OSFA policy where you create 1-4 sculpts that can be used for multiple profiles, and ideally don't even hold distinct weapons (sporting their sidearms instead, for example) so they can be used for various profiles while drastically cutting down on your design costs and backlog. Bundling I understand that bundling minis together is easy money for you, but the current approach is just blatantly anti-customer. Some boxes bundle Specialists and their Slaves; that's fine, but so many of the starter packs are just grab-bags of minis players just get stuck with, made worse by the fact that the WYSIWYG model pressures us to buy multiple bundles just to get multiples of certain minis (with or without the proper loadout). This is made worse by your habit of tying other properties into Infinity but offering only bundles to get their minis, like for Dire Foes, Aristeia! and TAG Raid. Please, if you're concerned with SKU's, just bundle responsibly, and at least offer individual blisters of models on your own web shop, even if it's at a markup for handling costs! Bloat As I alluded to previously, it's clear to me that you're having trouble actually juggling all the things you're trying to achieve simultaneously. So many factions, so many units, so many profiles, so many sculpts, so many events, so many narrative events, so much organized play, so many rules issues to handle; it's a lot and you keep announcing more. To me, it seems that you're bloating your publication schedule beyond any semblance of stability. Abandoning factions and profiles for those reasons is understandable, but erodes your customers' confidence and burns out your team. If I ran Infinity I'd want to do everything as well, but please consider taking things more slowly, cleaning up the backlog of work, updating what needs it and laying out a stable publication policy whose promises you can actually manifest. If that means removing vanilla Factions, combining Sectorials, re-designing NAAs or whatever else, do it but do it in measured ways and without making minis unusable. Baggage To that end, I believe you're suffering from a lot of design baggage. If you were to create Infinity today, I don't believe you'd have national Factions, I don't think the Order system would exist the way it does, Infinity would probably have an alternating activation system, would probably have all forces be hidden in deployment and revealed through scouting and infotech, wouldn't distinguish LI and SK, or Line and Regular troops and so on. Players would probably field units from the rosters of Mercenary Agencies with distinct approaches to combat, and who are only able to field faction-aligned at reasonable prices if they're working on behalf of a national faction, and there would be waaaaaay more overlap in which units any Agency is able to field, though at differing costs and AVAs. Comms Finally, please just start communicating about what you're doing, and where I can find information about it. I keep having this weird problem where I learn about major shake-ups to the game through community channels. Updates are just quietly released and I only notice them whenever I loop into what the most active people on the forums are talking about or what gets released on Goonhammer and it makes me feel like stuff is just happening at any point in time. I was surprised to discover TAG Raid might matter to me when I learned its models are playable in Infinity, but I only figured it out because there were suddenly new unit profiles on Army Builder! Please, just communicate about what's going on! Even if it's just a paragraph of text linking to the Blog when you open Army Builder, and actually publicize small rules and profile updates; please. That's me done, hope you enjoyed the read. Have a good one.
While I somewhat understand where this is coming from, I disagree with most of this with the exception of the Communication part. I will go by this section by section: Obsolescence It is very weird to hear this about Tohaa as while they desperately need new models, rules wise they have always been extremely strong and have been supported. They got additional, powerful rules multiple times in N3 and N4. They are mechanically a strong faction that does great in ITS. They just need models and some new profiles to allow more list building flexibility. Now, the recent addition of the "Playable but out of Catalogue" notification to army is extremely helpful was well needed. It makes it extremely clear to new players that these factions (with the notable exception of Tohaa) need new models and some profile tweaks. It is "caveat empor" that was really needed. Some are still really strong (Tohaa and Acon), but most are weak and now people will clearly know. It is also not general fact that newer models have the best rules. It took awhile, but things like Bolts got great glow ups. The NA-2 factions to me, with the exception of JSA, were opportunities to play with interesting mixes of units. They each have their own feel, but I never assumed they would get much rule attention and think of them of just for fun. Proxying I like having multiple versions of the same unit to show their different profiles. Link teams would be super boring if they were all the same model. Each model is a story and I love that about CB. The Govad HMG is such a characterful model that makes me want to use it, even if the rules don't work for me. Bundling Oh boy. To me, the starter bundles have gotten much better. There has been much improvement in that units in a starter are much more usable then they were in the past. For example, the Muyib and Govad box makes much more sense than the original separate Muyib and Govad boxes. But I accept that this might be a personal view. Bloat For better or worse, CB tries very very hard to not fully remove units or factions from play. In fact, this year they are bringing back the Exrah. Removing stuff is really, really disliked in this community. The biggest controversy CB had was Uprising, and they seemed to acutely learn to never do something like that again. (EDIT: Thanks @Triumph for the recent reminder). I also would dislike them actually removing full factions or sectorials from play. Baggage The baggage section I completely disagree as the ARO system is wonderful. I do not agree with any of it. Faction identity is very important and while it can be argued that is not as distinct as previous interactions, I feel the game is better for it. The majority of factions and sectorials are competitive and good. There is just a few outliners. Comms This is the only section I agree with. CB have become much better at notifying customers that things were cycling out. They also have improved immensely from the start of N3 to now introducing new rules, providing ITS stats, clear product schedules, and addressing bugs in Army. Anyone who was here when Uprising occurred can testify how CB's approach has improved. Recently, they have even been willing to change direction based on customer feedback (see the O12 Roadbot issue). Now am I happy with all their decisions? No. I wish Haqqislam had gotten some more models in the last few years, but hopefully that seems to be changing. I like the recent addition of notes in the FAQ, but would like them to do that much more often. And they really really need a community manager and a strong moderation team. I am glad that you started this discussion. EDIT: Made some minor grammatical edits.
In short... (may be not) We are not ready and dont want radical changes. The base of rules, orders, ARO and all of that system are a reason, why are we like this game. Despite things that make us mad... (but base is what we like. I guess...) We are still in the game. Story of the world and different armies are fine for me. We have forces of different sizes from hyperpowers to NA2 factions. It gives more colors to the story. Things with discontinued products are not so clear, yes, it is debatable. I understand, that CB have production limits, but some things looks too random. With tohaa and spiral I had to admit, that it was expected... Here they are not perfect. That is what I can say.
"Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" I just can't stand the amount of samey dudes for a similar price everywhere. It's just like some stupid free-to-play moba game that keeps releasing new characters, making powercreep worse and worse. Oh, wait, CB does that too... Sooner or later CB will have to revise their strategy, kill off half of the model range and consolidate existing/legacy models into fewer unit types.
I will preface this with that I do not intend to divide and conquer - I'm not really interested in the debate as a whole, nor of nitpicking. You are entitled to your opinion. Some notions, however, I do want to comment on, and the sections I quote will serve as representations of them. I don't think you've been with the game long enough to know this, but CB used to offer miniatures that allowed you to create a more wysiwyg force. They tended to be portrayed with only the melee weapon out. Several units only got the sword wielder and there were a lot of sword wielders. CB's policy back then was much closer to wysiwyg and the rules called for true line of sight (yes, there were several examples of modelling for advantage). Suffice to say, CB changed their policies on proxies and got in line with the most generous practices in the industry, together with the introduction of silhouettes which made artistic expressions on miniatures, both for CB's artists and for players, much more generous. At the same time, CB increased the variety of the product range as a whole, no longer constrained by the rules to create Generic McGenericface for as many units as possible. In short, the community loved these changes. Wow. Things got loaded fast and quick. Eject eject! This is not a bad idea. People are, after all, struggling to get the minis they want to reduce proxy. If there's one thing you can't accuse CB of it is this. CB seem to insist on retaining an expanding legacy that is, presumably, not capable of generating the cashflow necessary, but is still demanding some resources in upkeep. I don't think it's fair to ask that they completely redesign their business, game, and the stories the IP is based on simply because the game has evolved and isn't the same as it was. Keep in mind that this is not an IP that's generated, it is one that organically grew out of roleplaying sessions.
Wait... Is roleplay system here was before wargame?? Or there was more roleplay elements than in rules in previous redactions. That is interesting. (sorry for off topic, but I am really interested)
The infinity game that we know and play BEGAN as an "in house" rpg, with Gutier running it and several of the named characters being ACTUAL player characters in that game.
I agree with most of the post except for this. The order system is the flesh and blood of Infinity. Without it, it wouldn't be the game we love. A lot of things can change, but the order system, AROs, and contested dice rolls are the defining points of Infinity.
First: Very poor choice of words... But... isn´t the Order- and ARO-System the great thing about infinity? Not moving each unit once per turn like W40k or some alternating system like in the ASOIAF-game? This is exactly what i love about infinity and what (to my knowledge) in this kind no other system has to offer. The moment we got rid of that system/mechanic I think a lot people will search for an alternative system that offers something like that again. This. What is the way to please everyone? Did we need a Box with 4 Mobile Brigadas with each weapon loadout? Plus one in the start box? Not realy... Especially since mixed links are a thing. Do we want every weapon load out there is? Ofcourse we want. And don´t you dare leave even a single useless loadout away. I want to see every weapon presented on the modell, but also the flexibility to proxy it as everything else. Also do i not like Gunfighters wielding Melee weapons. You cannot please everybody. The way CB goes atm is .... not the best (not a huge fun of the combined boxes) but i understand it from a commercial standpoint to reduce the amount of blisters/boxes. The Alpha/Beta-packs are... well... nice for someone who does not have any of the modells. If u lack just one? Well, better find someone who takes the others Haha. Yes. The community will defenetly take it will. Everyone will be the one knowing best which units can be cut. Sorry, but this post is especially funny with the Squalo incident just days ago. (to be fair, that came with some other things, but still) That said i am totally with you. Most armies (especially vanillas) could use some serious cutting, especially with the omni-present mercs found in every faction and a constant flow of new miniatures/loadouts (looking at you, nomads). Limiting Faction specific units to sectorials only (like in Trinitarians, Crosairs or Knight Commander for MO, or Orphans, Cenobites and the lot for Bakunin,...) is one idea to reduce the Vanilla bloat, but does not help in the overall view (in my opinion) Amusingly, MO seems to be the only sectorial that comes to my mind where this happens on a regular occasion: Magister knights annihilated, Engineers exchanged, Father Knights turned into KoJ, Montesa and KothS completly reworked (in other factions these would have become straight up new profiles with the old standing by) Realy? Which Startboxes do you have in mind which are filled with useless units? To my experience the starter boxes felt quite fine all around, especially in the closer past. But I also do not play every faction to have a complete experience. mmmh... yes, thats a constant fear you have to deal with an advancing narrative. But I can work way better with Units that are annihilated and therefor no more playable if it is properly explained to me than eternal stagnation on the status quo for decades (and we all know which system I refer to). I am tried and tested in terms of armies beeing first ignored for years, then discontinued and finally deleted together with the whole system they were in. This combined with a company with a much less consumer-friendly take on proxy-rules is....something.
Well, they didn't give any alternative use for an old Squalo model like, say, *Old Generation TAG* with similar loadout (exclusive for Nomads cause they bought all stock). That Pano outcry changes nothing, they'll just wait couple of years until old players don't care anymore. And then there will be End Times.
Then there you'll have to find a different use for your old Squalo. I.e. proxy it as something. I had a whole set of 5 Azra'il from N2 era(as in, N2HS filigree HI, in what corresponend to N3/N4's Silhouette 2). Made out of 2 existing sculpts, so two armswaps and one genuine conversion: under N2 QK, this made sense. Then N3 came, and the models became unplayable: not only did the Azra'il lose all of theri previous loadouts save for Feuerbach, but they also have grown ino S5 superheavies. Not to mention, I had nothing to use them as - no need for HI proxies among my armies at that moment. Was I pleased? Oh, sure as hell not. For a while, the 5 Azra'il sat, sadly, in may display cabinet, a testament to the past glories. Then, I decided to start playing StarCo. And with a little modification, the Azra'il of N2 became my StarCo RiotGrrls. I even managed to snatch one more from a discount bin of an online store, and turn him into a ML Grrl. So don't tell me there's no S7 TAG an old Squalo could be proxied as.
I am not happy about squalo and prefer it would stay, but after all this talks I am less antagonistic to use it somehow else. If (and probably it is how it would be) it would leave us as a profile where could it be used? .. + Only Dragoe fits well aesthetically. +/- Seraph, but it may needs some conversion in some additional details. Seraph have a sword. Squalo itself fits not well as "CC tag" . - not Jotum... Too much troubles, but it is possible to add armor. But does it worth it? I'd prefer to keep sculpt. - not other factions s7 tags. Because this one doesnt fits manned tags aesthetics.
And that's only if you skip over the fact the model we're talking about is the 2gen Squalo sculpt. The original, N1-era-one (what I'd call 1gen.*) should actually fit well into a S6. It was designed for a 40mm base, after all :P * I find it somewhat confusing to refer to miniatures by Infinity edition. Some had more than one take on them during the same N-era (eg. Odalisques: they had their initial two models, the Spitfire and BSG, during the N2HS, then replacing the BSG one with a box of 4 - inc. BSG - following N2C:P, and the Spitfire wasn't resculpted till N4...) while others have seen a resculpt in N4 to a model that hailed back from N1. I think we'd all find it less confusing calling the models by subsequent generations of the sculpt, chronologically - without connectiong them to a fixed N-era.
I don’t know, how many of us have OLDER Squalo, but it was at least an interesting historical info. So, does that mean, if history is cyclical, S7 squalo could be useful during N5 or N6? Better to wait a little
By that time there will be a cool new Squalo model in the pipeline. Will you be able to resist the temptation? :P
Mmmmm... I don’t know. I would try. I’d prefer the best miniatures on the market made in papier-mache. But to the point! Then, it is not new to loose profile of a miniature. What could we do? Wait till CB would find, how they are going to move further? Or better to say when they would complete to move their train on another line? I hate such a waiting...
Always can proxie him with a merc tag like anaconda o triphammer if your armies can use it... Ifind some merc sectorials the perfect place for full proxi minis. I have a old Bashi and newer ones. In DBS, I use older one a ABH, so no need to purchase that minis and in a future I will use him to proxi korsan until have the proper one. Hope this helps.
