Ahh yes I suppose your own Reinforcements could be a but harder to predict during list building. I feel like it could be a but hit or miss with doctors/engineers, as if your model they are designed to heal/fix is killed.all the way to dead then they're essentially wasted points that might have been better spent on models that can kill things.
1. No. But it might be. It's sufficiently close that I feel like this is worth exploring. I do think that the Reinforcement list is likely going to be an underdog given the lower amount of orders on the table at almost any given time and the typically lower amount of SWC. My guts instincts has me suspecting it's close enough that the mandatory least-useful-trooper that is the sum total of the handicap. 2. Yes. The arrival at 50 points lost unit that Carlos spoke about during the presentations were the small format of 250 points. The amount of victory points remaining that trigger reinforcement arrival scales based on the size of the game.
Purely theorycrafting here, but: One more thing I think there is (basically, since the intorduction of ITS and "a game lasts 3 turns" format): healing / repairing models in your turn #3 is a net loss of Orders. I.e. the models healed / repaired won't generate you any Orders next turn, because there won't be any next turn (and you're still spending Orders getting the Doc / Engineer close enough to even give it a try. Naturally, REF Doc has the potential option to deploy right next to a model requiring their attention). Therefore, Doctor / Engineer who makes it to the table in turn #3 (from Reinforcements) does it as a Specialist to achieve Mission Objectives (regular or Classified), or to revive a model who will bring its points value back on-table, assuming it is of importance towards victroy conditions, will be an important piece of your final hurrah attempt at changing the situation on the table will be a useful defensive piece in the opponent's oncoming last turn. All of that needs to keep in mind the Doc / Engineer will be operating on the very few Orders their Reinforcements Group brings to the table. All of that suggests Doc / Engineer in a Reinforcements Group is likely to be of limited usefulness, compared to one in your Base Group.
This, in conjunction with limited options for Comlink, is a valid argument. If all that you pay is 10 pts AND 0.5 swc, then you may as well reduce the points for the game mode to 340 pts and 6.5 swc. Regarding your point about perfectly spent points, I do not mind. In several of my USARF lists I am 9 points down and 1.5-2.5 swc down. Yes, I am priviliged in my sectorial to have low cost and low options, but I never regarded spending every single available point and every single 0.5 swc as a big deal. If I can make my list do what I want and hit 15 orders (mind I did not play reinforcements yet) before I spend every point, I look for upgrades. But if upgrading will break my links, I do not bother.
I just want to let you know that we're monitoring your feedback and reading your comments from different sources about Reinforcements. The dev team will evaluate in due time your feedback, and if needed, make adjustments or corrections. But for now, I hope you can enjoy this new game mode from now on :)
defenetly a +1 from me. If everyone has to pay the same tax... whyexactly do we even pay it? Years ago a heared a amazing good metapher for something similar: If everyone has the same buff or nerf, it doesnt matter anything. It´s like giving each player a fireball that deal 200 dmg, and at the same time you also give every player a shield, that absorbs 200dmg from a fireball. It looks fancy and stuff, but it is worth nothing. I´d like the approach someone in here mentioned: bring commlink on several units no one touches otherwise: Infarmers, Vargar, Odalesques, apsaras, Lobos, every Yu jing unit.... I would love that. Give the basic line infanterie Commlink to unlock it as cheap as possible, and give the other units improved versions of it. Here i have to intervene a little: Building lists with 250 / 5 ofcourse feels uncanny. Since how much years are we alle running lists with 300 points? (Well, except @Triumph ofcourse, who´s running 400 / 8) Ripping everyone out of their 300points-comfort zone is just tricky till you get used to it. I´d love to play tournaments with everything but 300points. You meat a lot of different approaches how people deal with more/less points to spent and how they work with when beeing ofrced to play something else than they do for years and years. This is imho a temporary problem which we all get used to, cause we are all smart people who can adept. :-D Welcome to playing Limited Insertion. Played it regulary for a long time, especially fun against 24+ order armies back in N3. Oh yes, that was a blast. From experience: it´s managable to play it that way. It´s more complicated, cause you have to make every order count. It is way less forgiving so you can´t depend on luck. Every move is important, and null deployment can become your arch enemy if you not prepare for it, and even then. But..... ....welcome to Limited Insertion in N4... One of the worst things that came with the actuall ITS imho. LI is a mode I loved to play and novadays its not an uphill battle. Its invasion of scottland without ships and ladders with the scots standing on cliffs. The only good thing in this scenario: you opponent suffers the same. You are not running against 1,5 combat groups filled with ARO pieces, but against a single group with offense and defense aswell. Damn, i realy need to play a round reinforcement. I need to test this to get a feeling for it. The experiences from @MattB89 and @Time Bandit seem to drift apart so much I am curious if it´s the gamestyle, or the lists, or the luck, or the missions, or what ever.... @Koni Thank you for this information. It values everything spoken/written in here when we know it will eventually be heard and taken as feedback how the mode is going.
I'm currently playing the 350 advertised in the rules packet, the consensus so far is dropping the main force to 250 has exacerbated some of the problems already present at 300 points. It's easier to go overboard on a crippling alpha strike, and list constraints are actively hurting build variety because of inherent taxes such as the Commlink, ARO necessities, specialists etc. It also favours vanilla more as playing at 250 is detrimental to people who want to build core fireteams that are anything beyond pure ARO chaff. The mode benefits lists that build towards a menagerie of solo operator units, which is Vanilla's wheelhouse which is then further compounded by Vanilla getting access to Haris teams with this update. With that said I think reinforcements has potential to be really good. They just need to clean up some things like the commlink and making the reinforcements show up a bit faster, and from what we've been looking at adding another 50 points to the main force helps fix alot of the list building issues.
I just want to second the suggestion of updating the command token use, at the very least for smaller games or with a 1 combat group immunity or even "reduce the order pool by up to 2 orders such that the total of regular and irregular orders is not reduced below 10".
Zero pain can be very annoying and a order think. With enough dices your hacker will go down - yes. Try to also build in a Algua Lt. with 1 swc so hello Wildcat (did not build any RF CJC list now). Whats positive about that commlink tax? Not the best comparsion here. Reinforcments don´t need a 10/0,5 tax to run. It would work fine without. Just put the commlink rule for free on given profiles and go. Maybe make it mandatory that both player agree to play the RF rules. Had the same experience. But honestly in a normal game its the same in the main group. But in my game every order wasted was a PIA. I played ISS where I normaly have nice 2nd group. I will give it a try with IA and NCO/TA Haris. yep. We also think so. I lost 98 pts... and could use the RF, as they came in T3 I was already in LoL and down to two orders. And a 250 pts game is a bit low. We will give it a try for the next two games - the first was not very representative due to bad luck. Definitly will try out a Frontline or Supremacy mission. Theoreticaly its more easy for P2. Maybe in the 4" dead zone ... but its at least consequent.
The difference here being that at least in a normal game, you have a second combat groups worth of orders that you can use to clear enemy AROs or push buttons while your attack piece in your main groups legs it up the field. Honestly with such a reduced order pool going first (8 Regular) orders I would not be surprised if most lists start to autoinclude CounterIntelligence models purely to save an order. Also this might be a game mode where Infiltrating models past the half way line could see more play. I have seen a couple of replies saying your opponent is also limited to 10 order back in their turn as well, but realistically, player 1 has to move up the field to push buttons and do the scenario, bringing their models closer for Player 2 to attack.
so the only reason you play wildcats is the ltn without SWC tax and it´s not a Brigada. Exactly my point. Ther eis no other reason to pick them
Yes, although gut feeling is that the casualties required need to come down. Right now you're required to lose nearly half your army in value before reinforcements arrive, expecting reinforcements to have a decent chance to turn the tide when you've taken at a minimum 40% in damage to your active list is a bit of a tall order when they're arriving with limited orders to begin with.
Just make the Reinforcement threshold act like reverse retreat, 25% of the game size. So at 350 points, that cap drops to 87 points lost. It's not a huge drop, but I think it'd make a huge difference. Especially if you remove the awful commlink tax.
So 263 victory points left? at the moment reinforcements at 350 points kick in at roughly 28,7% losses.
No, they kick in at 40% losses at the moment. You work off the main force's numbers because it's entirely possible they miss the first two turns of the game right now. You don't factor the reinforcements into that percentage when you're talking about available forces because they're literally not available forces. Right now a Speculo can stab an 80 point TAG on turn 1 before you even get to spend an order, and you still don't qualify to get reinforcements to replace a massive points investment to your available forces.
The thing is the threshold is calculated including reinforcements on the total points, without them reinforcements indeed trigger on 40% losses of things on the table, at 87 points it would be 37% losses of the main forces, 25% losses of the main force would be roughly 63 points of losses.
You know. If your point of view is that the mutual commlink points and SWC costs are taxes, then comparing to petrol is quite apt since in a lot of EU countries (and presumably Canada) at least half the price of petrol is taxes and environmental fees. (I'm just poking fun, btw, don't take this seriously)
Again, I think 87 would be a meaningfully positive change. It's only a 13 point difference, but I think that's a much easier threshold to hit considering the costing of the more valuable troopers you stand to lose.
