That tiresome I think is shared for a lot of Pano players. Around me a good amount of players have stopped to play Pano and start to play others factions. I still alternate in time to time, but I don't know, maybe I have to take a good rest from Pano.
They have to promote the new Armbot box ... but, wait ... normaly I like to buy new stuff, but this time I refused, because I own two Bulleteers already
Yeah, pretty much why I stopped playing Infinity. If Gutier can't be asked to give us a good gaming experience (and balance is a big part of that) then I can't be asked to buy their products. Already have an old Caskuda, don't need a new one.
Nah. If the Peacemaker was balanced before it's imbalanced now. Absent a commentary from CB I don't know they know what they're doing. It'd be nice if someone could teach Gutier how to play Nomads so he doesn't need a massive unearned advantage to win games.
I'll be honest. Your post confused me. I had the same thoughts as Psystorm. It really was not clear what you were trying to say. I want to say this as polite as I can but I am not sure how so I'll just say it. Maybe try to be a bit more concise on your posts to avoid confusion rather than assuming someone is strawmanning your arguments.
Well, that went about as well as I expected. *Shrug Anyway, back to the "insulting nerf", I remember when the bulleter was first reduced to 23 points and I know quite a lot of people were surprised. It seemed a tad undercosted. Now its been adjusted to a more reasonable cost. A Kamau HMG is just 2 more points than a Bulleteer now instead of 5 points. That seems more reasonable. I dont think the cost of a Bulletter has much to do with Pano reliability in ITS missions. The real issue is that Pano rarely gets anything new to shake up how the faction plays. All our sectorials are more or less shoot things dead because theres little else you can do. Even Yu Jing is far less restrictive. Sadly, with O-12 being "Pano but with nice things", I see little hope of this ever changing for Pano. The best we can do is pray for a Shock Army revival like the one Bakunin just got.
But I answered that in my post. To repeat, does it seem right for a Bulletter spitfire to cost 23 points while a HMG Kamau is 28 points? The bulletter use to cost more and somehow got a big discount. I believe that was from the N4 release.
Honestly, I think some of it is due to the player reaction when CB tries something new for Pano. When Varuna came out, Echo-bravos were introduced. They gave Pano a new ability: a Parachutist non hackable specialist with at the time a truly unique item (WildParrot). People largely ignored it and focused the PanO traditional "Good BS Gun with Mods" units instead like the Kamau and Zulu Cobras instead. Same thing happened with Winter Force. Vargars are toolbox units that add new capabilities and options to Pano. But no one uses them and takes the Karhu instead because Karhu slot into the traditional Pano role. My final example is the MO Knight of Santiago. It is very unique two wound toolbox unit with a range of different profiles (killer hacker with built in tinbot, drop troop, 0 SWC spitfire LT with e/m grenades). Very unique, but it doesn't see much play as players feel it would be more "optimal" to spend the points on a better gunfighter. I don't know how CB can change their course with PanO as any attempts to develop different tools are immediately negatively compared to the Traditional PanO approach units.
Part of the problem is Pano has only one way to win missions. And thats to smash face with brute force. Pano has to win FTF rolls to accomplish anything and those tool box units dont help with that and are pricey. Also, wip 12 specialist is why people avoid the Echo-Bravo. Nothing feels worst than failing your wip roll to grab an objective multiple times. The echo is better used as just an attack piece.
This is wrong because Knight of Santiago was played a lot after their update at third offensive (If I remember correctly). They were wildcards since the update so MO players fit two KoS (Spitfire and KHD) into Magisters link. N4 update and MO rework removed magisters and changed link options, but KoS had their role, at least KHD. I think fireteam update killed Knights of Santiagos. They cannot get pure link bonus, their partner Crosiers and Teutons began to cheat on each other from the fireteam update. This is how CB killed KoS, not players did not tried interesting toolbox knights.
I have to say I use all the toolbox elements mentioned, for me a Vargar haris is almost indispensable.
They could start by supporting the new tools a little better, PanO has a lot of trouble keeping those midfield tech pieces alive long enough to do something useful due to PanO's dreadful performance into close-range asymmetrical tools like DTWs or Hacking and our best option for doing that just got a 4pt cost hike for no reason. Without a full reimagining of the faction and just off the top of my head, fast objective grabbers, reliable Killer Hackers and expanded Auxbot choices and access would all be universally appreciated by the faction's players, as they would help reinforce the existing playstyle and identity while providing sorely needed short-range asymmetrical play and Order efficiency in firing lanes already cleared by our gunners. I'm a big believer in the power of a well-positioned Combi Rifle, but the prevalence of DTWs and PanO's wretched performance in piece trading prevents me from relying on things like EBs this edition unless I can drop about three where I need them. When I can get that critical mass though, it's usually a very effective strategy- my rare Yu Jing lists typically start with three Tiger Soldiers, and they've tabled people on Turn One who've underestimated just how much damage airborne troops can do by saving all those orders crossing the table. If I could take one more ZC I'd probably play Vanilla PanO and use Akali for this tactic, but I can't quite get enough forward-deployed objective grabber to feel comfortable at the moment.
As I saw how this topic is mutating and transforming, some idea kept the same. Some factions got to the side from their “faction identity” while PanO is in this cage. This is the main thing. On the other hand I see MO and even sometime other sectorials of our lovely blue faction in different tournaments. Not on the top, but still. So, they are not forgotten that much, and MO could be competitive. What is next? My personal wish to have a doc and engineer be at least wip 12.5 (ok, May be even 13. I am bold today) to feel good about them... About point changes... we are not the top faction. That is why this nerfs feels a little more painful. Just it. We have right to ask why and find an exit for our PAIN (sorry for dramatist.) P.s. I feel not less pain, when you are angry on each other without limits.
Vargar's and Karhu's amazing models where what made me start collecting SWF. My personal problem with Vargars, which I have not yet solved on how to make it work for me, is that I feel pulled on opposite angles when I use them. Given Albedo's one turn clock timer I feel pressed to keep feeding them orders in the first turn of the game, specially to get close to the enemy lines to use their wildparrot and template weapons. But as they're a 4-4 MOV troop they cannot do this very job and at the same time easily retreat into some kind of safety up a bulding using superjump back to the midtable. So they usually end their activation turn in a most perilous position everytime I have used them. As they're not precisely cheap, and are costed as premium MI, I also feel that I need to keep them safe. Specially when they're easily trade up by a less than 10 points warband with a template weapon. Below are my own opinions on what can make Vargar's shine in the game or at least more easy to be used. Of course, this is only my own impressions on them after toying with different vargar-centric lists and testing for quite the number of games played. A - For making Albedo not mandatory on turn one of the game. If Albedo's activation would be optional, it would open the choices of when to 'go hard' with them instead of being forced to overuse them on turn one every game. B - For giving them a better MOV. Even 6-2 Mov troop would make them able to close the gap with ease when needed, jump into buldings easier and as well as being able to more easily perform Cautious Move against non-MSV troops. Also, this would make them match the Orc MOV, who are their pure link option C - For core. The fact that they can not make a pure core link on their own, and need expensive HI Orc to do so, makes them more complicated to use at them at a level higher than a Haris. It would be great that the available 5 vargars you can include in a list could make a pure MI core team. That the Orcs have a different MOV value than them, and that the Winterforce versions of them have missmatched vertical mobility skills when joined by Vargars between superjump and climbing plus is only an additional issue to be attended when used together. In fact, Winterforce Orcs feel more at home when they have Karhu as a member of their team due to same MOV values, and same vertical skills. D - For Forward Deployment. If Vargars start a little bit further in the table from the start of the game, along with their super-jump skill, it would save them from one to three precious orders that they need to perform their 'attack hard and retreat' pattern. This has the colateral effect that the Nokkens would find some sturdy companions close to them with additional Minelayer options, so their survivality on the midfield in reactive turn would increase. I acknowledge that all of this happening at the same time is extremely unlikely, and it is just a glorified wishlist. Specially any changes being made to Albedo. But with a more grounded approach, just having the option B, and making them having a more tactical 6-2 MOV, would make them much better to be able to 'attack hard' in the first turn of the game and 'retreat to higher grounds' with ease.
I like that the classic Pano limitations are maintained: no smoke, low WIP, poor offensive hacking, no access to warbands... The faction's strengths are not so strong anymore (better BS and technological superiority). As an idea, perhaps a more defensive tone could be given to the faction as a new identity (more minelayers, more profiles with markmanship, ecm hacking -3 ...)
@Rabble I mostly ignore Albedo, it is nice if I can use it but it is just something to take advantage is the opportunity happens, their Super Jump on the other hand is what I mainly use them for and what I mostly take advantage of with them, this increased mobility and unorthodox angles of attacks is what makes them include them as a haris in almost every winterforce list I make. @Von Clausewitz there are a few ideas suggested by the community along these lines, but I think you outline the issue quite well its not the faction weaknesses and limitations that is the issue but how to amplify the strengths.
Honestly, I think that there's absolutely nothing wrong with Pano design space. It's just that other factions' design spaces are so expansionist and have bloated so much, while Pano's has stayed very rigid for some reason, that it feels like there's very little reason left to play Pano. Nomads, YJ and O12 shoot just as well in all cases but a few (eg the OOP Tik), but also bring smoke, warbands, excellent hacking and fireteam composition. O12 in particular feels particularly egregious. Apart from awesome models, why would you choose Pano as a new player, knowing what you now know as a veteran player?
