Pretty straightforward. It's ridiculous that Impersonation gets to deploy right up to the opposing DZ without having to roll, and yet infiltrators have to pay more to be less reliable. It's an incredibly frustrating experience to pay extra for an ability who's roll is completely uninteractive and with such harsh punishment for failure. It's clear that these troopers are priced without considering the cost of failure in their usage, and it's also clear that some factions rely on their presence to do their job (JSA flat out just lacks options to deal with a lot of things without Oni/Kitsune). Doubly so when guaranteed opposing-side deployment abilities are becoming more common (and for cheaper). At this point, either remove the roll for troopers these 'superior infiltrators' entirely, or at least reduce the penalty so that it's not such a ridiculous handicap. I'd even be alright with forcing them to infiltrate normally on failure (losing hidden deployment for those that have it, but not marker state).
This is game about dice rols and risk managment. To make infiltraton roll is high risk high reward strategy. It is also a viable strategy to play it safe i.e. not make those rolls.
Then these troopers should be cheaper, or other abilities that offer better benefits with no risk should either have additional risk added (ie, Impersonation and perhaps even Parachutist: DZ should have to roll), or the costs should be adjusted to match. There's no good reason for the much superior Impersonation to not have to roll and cost less at the same time. Infiltration pays heavily for a privilege that the game encourages you not to use. Effectively losing a trooper on a non-interactive dice roll before the game even starts is way too harsh a penalty to work around for the premium price you pay for it. Similarly, balancing these abilities around it having a chance to fail isn't ideal, since it does nothing to reign those troopers in when they (significantly more often) do succeed.
Making them to infiltrate normally on failure will encourage use of infiltration skill too much. Just deploy them normally in your dz while keeping Hidden deployment and camo would be a nice compromise.
I will always loath game design where you roll a dice to make or break large and important decisions. "Now that we've deployed, let's roll and see what time of day it is". Primarily, I think the punishment for failing the roll is the bigger issue for me. Losing minelayed equipment and Hidden Deployment is fine, but having your elite trooper both being stripped of camo and be forced to deploy together with Private Angus who's barely on the game table because he doesn't know how shoelaces work is a bit much. Ironically missions with Confused Deployment is fairer in this regard.
How do you gauge Impersonation's and Parachutist (Deployment Zone) risk-reward metrics? Compared to Infiltration? Specially because those skills make for cheaper troops, too.
And it was done because if the placement remains the same and you only loose hidden deployment, camouflage status and minelayer, nothing stops infiltrating template units line up in the deployment zone line and laugh.
Parachutist (Deployment Zone) is a dead order the trooper can potentially die unopposed when they enter the table, Impersonation is generally restricted by low AVA and on many units severe SWC, open to debate if AVA from 1-3 (spread among different units) is too much or not, but generally it is less than what most factions can have as infiltrators. Infiltrating and specifically Superior infiltration is usually bundled with hidden deployment making a successful roll not only having a unit were an Impersonator would be without a roll but also invulnerable.
sounds also good for me. Opening the entire DZ to failed infiltraters with keeping their states sounds ok to me (Hellcats had this with failing Combat jump aswell, and it did not feel gamebreaking) But infiltrating towards enemy DZ without any clear drawback (or even a roll to succeed) opens all doors to abuse. Was I the only one hearing the loud cries of eternal punishment when an enemy Andromeda locked down entire armies just by standing in the enemy half of the table? Now imagine that without needing to roll. That brings back PTSD for some players. Also, whilest we talk about hecklers beeing able to unopposedly place repeaters feeling unfun to play against due to no counterplay, what can a HD unit with a huge focus on close combat do, if it is allowed to deploy at the edge of the enemies DZ. Not to walk the extra 12 inches straight to reach that point seems to be an huge advantage, which shold not come "for free". That said, i would totally agree with the option to place the unit freely in the DZ. So is AD: Combat Jump for units with both Combat Jump and Parachutist. In my opinion (but thats just me, based on my experience) Mobility is a huge factor of the game, for most of the orders we spent include some sort of movement. Beeing fast is a great advantage if you want a unit to reach a certain spot on the table. Just placing it there is even better, cause it makes the way to reach it unimaginable more safe, for obvious reasons. Plus you don´t have to spent preciouse orders. mmmh I get the point. It´s just chance.... tbh, most of the game we play is chance, no matter how dice-calculatory you want to see it. At the end of the day everything we do is rolling dice. Like god :) but yes, normaly you can influence the results way more than to roll a single die. But isn´t that part of the fun? Risky, but rewarding. Maybe (to give it a fluffy explenation) failing his (forward) infiltrating roll does not mean the unit stumbled over their own feed but got spotted by enemy scouts and therefore have to retreat to a safe postion, which is not a position he could safely stand without the enemy beeing avare of him. But thats just fluff-explenation, that has nothing to do with how the game should work, I belive. To be fair, Parachutist (DZ) is not a very common skill and placed on 4 units (if i remember correctly), so not very common, and non of them comes in marker state (which, imho, is a big difference). Impersinator is a way more limited Skill, both in units and (more important) Factions. Without CA, Haqq or Tohaa/SC there is no chance to face Impersination, whilest infiltration is way more common on far more units. But yes, you are right, especially impersination units with partially 2 Marker-states and 2 Wounds seem to be the way superior (and cheaper) option to reach the enemy DZ (which is, tbh, their sole purpose)
Alright... I will tackle your baits, you trolls... Surely, if I make bad plays my troopers end dead... wow! Who would've thought? Parachutist (Deployment Zone) should not equate to "place your miniature in the middle of their entire Army 1st order, top of turn 1!" Nor should this be an argument that rightly assess the risk-reward of such a skill... C'mon, man. AVA and SWC cost does not compare the risk-reward of Impersonation in comparison with "Superior" Infiltration. Which means very little: because if you are going first, you are going to cancel the HD sooner rather than later; and if going second, rolling for Infiltration aggressively might be dangerous, specially in ITS14 with the Tachimoto. My point is: the cases where the infiltrated HD is better than Impersonation are few and rare. It's not about being common or uncommon... My argument is that: in a game of risk management, why does Impersonation and Parachutist (Deployment Zone) cost so much less than "Superior" Infiltrators, while having much safer mechanisms to employ their role? Do note that OP only refers to Infiltrators that right now have Infiltration(+6) (N3's Superior Infiltration). No one in their right mind wants Daylamis, Hunzakuts, Zero, Morans, Shrouded, etc.. to have risk-free infiltration rolls. We are talking of very small pool of Infil+6 units. Impersonation safety mechanisms: - 2 states - free deployment up to 32" - ignoring mines Parachutist (Deployment Zone) safety mechanisms: - delayed deployment - immunity to sensor - no roll to deploy anywhere in the board edge Meanwhile Infiltration+6 have to roll to get the same deployment freedom as the Impersonation skill gets for free, have to have other skills to give them safety mechanisms, like Camouflage and Hidden Deployment (while Impersonation comes with a marker state and Parachutist comes with delayed deployment, which equates very roughly to Hidden) and the troopers that have this skill cost normally more than their counterparts. Why is the riskier skill the more expensive one? Why is the safer skill the cheaper one? The rewards don't differ that much to justify the risk.
It's always going to be a matter of combined abilities. Andromeda right at your doorstep is many times more difficult to deal with than Andromeda 8" outside her own doorstep - that's how her threat projection work, and probably why now that she's down to straight PH to infiltrate people have started treating her as a non-starter profile again. While it is a risk vs reward thing, I think the magnitudes of both the risk and reward are off.
....wow, thank you, i guess? your list is inconsistent. If you mentioning immunity to beeing sensored as an advantage, count it also in for Impersination state. Ok, lets call them all by names: We are comparing Oniwaban (34pt - 38pt, not counting the +1SWC for ltn tax) kitsune (44/0,5) Bran do Castro (32pt - 33pt) and Spoiler: Parachutist (DZ) Carlotta(30pt) Van Zant (34pt) Equipt Mirage 5 (29pt + 37pt) Rasyats (32pt - 37pt) or Spoiler: Impersinator Greif (21/1pt) (just IMP-2) Fiday (25pt - 27pt) Al-Djabel (33pt) Kiiutan (29/0,5pt) jaan staar (31/1pt) Speculo (31/1pt) Now, with clear numbers we can start comairing properly. All Infiltrators+6 are outstanding Melee specialists, with Brando beeing the least optimized of the trio. All of the units mentioned above are mediocre at best in terms of shooting, based on weaponry (combi rifles, rifles, SMG, shotguns) with the exception of Carlota and Margot (BS13 and 14 and defenetly focus on shooting, with CombiRifle/Adhessaive launcher and AP rifle, Grenade launcher/LS) Tbh, I find that hard to compare, so i will pick out the easy one for me and you can do the rest: Bran do castro and Fiday: Quite similar statline (CC22/23, BS11, PH13/12) Advantage Fiday: No roll for Positioning in enemy half 2 Marker states Higher MA lvl (which does not make an difference in direct comparison, he just hits harder and is now on equal PH) Smoke (!) DA CCW (most profiles) Advantages Bran do: NWI Mimetism-3 MOV 6-2 SJ Camo state, means he can re-enter marker state. Can hit buttons biggest difference in points is 8pt. imho Bran do seems to be more durable due to NWI and mimetism and flexible in terms of moving and repositioning, but (and thats whats it all about:) has to roll on 16 to be placed in enemy half, whilest Fiday can roll on WiP 15 to deploy in enemy DZ (which brings the same disadvantage if you fail the WiP) In direct comparison i see the Fiday as the better unit for the job, for beeing very cheap and maybe also the more safe option if going second. wanna compare one more, lets mabe take the two best melees of the lot: Oniwaban vs. Speculo (maybe?) I think its obviouse where the high cost of the oniwaban comes from: MA4, Mono and E/M CCW, high CC value, mimetism -6, Camo and HD. Not to roll for placing in enemy half is a huge advantage, i agree to that, especially with oniqabans beeing dogshit if not hitting enemys with a stick. Speculo/Al djabel and especially Jaan staar are far better prepared for their hail mary job and are cheaper. Especially Jaan Staar. edit.: just double checked on the Prowler BSG. 33 Points, worse Mimetism, not comparable in CC, +1 on BS and can hit buttons and has D-charges. So he looks inferior but has a complete different purpose. Just a wild thought of mine, wanted to double chek on another HD unit. I think i agree at the end. Oniwaban, without camo or HD standing in your own DZ is....worth nothing, but costs 33 -38pt. As we are speaking of just this 3 units with Infiltration +6, maybe something like Infiltration (no roll) or (+12 inches) or stuff like that. Dunno. But even then people would again start bashing nomads, for Bran Do gets it aswell :-D Nomads always win
From personal experience, I had the displeasure of having both Kitsune and an Oniwaban outside of my deployment zone ready to dodge in any unit that passed from their hidden location that I did not know because of the hidden deployment, the risk taken was great, I have seen Sinobu taking the sightseen of her deployment zone, but the reward of having her there untouchable until she chooses to was great. I have also seen reports were Grunts have been successfully deployed outside of the enemies deployment zone and it was terrible to deal with, I have the pleasure of having multiple minelayers infiltrating at my deployment zone and while in my practice games my Guilang always failed his infiltration roll, in the tournament he managed it 2/2 and that netted me great leverage initially by having a hacker controlling most of the secure area in first game and by not only getting the opponents cryogenics and denying them from him but also taking over his Marut. All great rewards for taking a risk. I still maintain that hidden deployment especially when going second is superior to Impersonation, Parachutists (DZ) can be contained if you expect them and while Impersonation is superior in getting the troop there, the troop is not as versatile as the infiltrating options are. As it stands Infiltration skill works fine in my opinion, now if you think Parachutists (DZ) and Impersonators should be toned down its another discussion.
You are most welcome. Good catch!!! But you don't need to roll, right? Two marker state gives you 20" of free movement (while ignoring mines). If you start at their DZ line, 20" is enough to get where you want. But yeah, we are in agreement with most of the stuff. It's just weird to me why Oniwaban has to have so much more restrictions than say a Fiday, while costing more. Or Bran to a Kiiutan/Jaan Star, etc.. Bran is fine. It would still be fine even if he got a safer infiltration mechanic. No, you maintain that Hidden Deployment together with Infiltration is better. You are saying that two skills are better than one, which I would agree, in general. Camo is good but better with Mimetism, and so on... But do pause and realise that you are comparing a set of 3 skills to equate the pressure and threat projection of 1 (or 2 distinct ones). I think that, either Infiltration+6 could have a slight rework to make it safer or less punishing (in cases of failure), or the units that (specifically) have Infiltration+6 should cost less. Or Impersonation should cost more, or be slightly more risky.
Instead of remove dice roll for Sup Infiltration, make impersonators roll, plain WIP like now for Dep Zones, and +3 for the rest of the table
Technically I am comparing an unnested skillset with probably the only nested skill the game still has, not that it is much different really, it was two skills superior Infiltration and TO camouflage this became Infiltration (+6), camouflage, hidden deployment, mimetism -6, surprise attack -3 and stealth, Impersonation remained the same more or less the Surprise Attack and Stealth have been unnested but otherwise deployment and marker state remained on the same skill. I guess Impersonation could be unnested for the marker state and the deployment skill. I am against making Infiltration and AD less risky even deploying on your deployment zone and not at the edge makes the choice trivial, if you fail it you just loose the marker state, but can still be placed in a safe or an advantageous position, I am not sure if Impersonation should become more expensive Spekulo who is my impersonator is more or less as she should be, maybe the other Impersonators without SWC could do with at least 0,5 SWC? I am not sure.
I think overall its bad design because it's a single die roll that can swing the game massively. Ditto with putting Impersonators in DZs.
It falls under the same flawed principle of design as 'Akuma's overpowered, but it's okay because they made his health low.' Like, sure, it's incredibly potent and you have to build your entire defense around dealing with it. If it's overly potent, the chance of failure doesn't make it suddenly balanced the most of the time it actually does go off. Moreover, the faction that employs it most, JSA, ends up being designed with considerations built around it's success to the point that failure harms the gameplan too much. There are matchups where JSA just cannot leave the deployment zone if that roll fails. The design just skews way too far in one direction or another. Either build the mechanic to not have the risk inherent, or design the tools so that they aren't an overcosted staple.
Reducing the fine can help with this. Failed the infiltration roll - you lose the hidden deployments, but you get the forward deployment skill (+8), you keep the camouflage and the minelayer.
Or Speculo could be easier on SWC - I'm pretty much convinced this is the result of her Mono CCW. Same as with Greif Operator having Impersonation and D-Charges. Hassassin Fiday - who are the other iconic Impersonators - come at 0 SWC, but at the same time they don't have a way of dealing with a tough target, like a TAG. High CC and MArts don't solve that (especially with current Critical rules).
