Insulting nerf

The problem with 15 models at 400pts is that some factions just have some really terrible choices, being more expensive simply for the sake of filling in the point values. Minutemen for instance, or Wildcats. It also makes the linetrooper even more obsolete outside of maybe double TAG lists.

 

Wildcats still see frequent use at 400 points, they have strong specialist and cost efficient weapon platform options that see them put into fireteams still. You see more Brigada at 400 too as it becomes easier to upgrade units into them.

We also find linetroopers are actually less obsolete at 400 points, it's more likely there are spare points and SWC left over but no combat group space, so random cheerleader gets handed a HMG or something. Certainly after years of playing IA the Zhanshi have never completely left my lists, cheap specialists that can form or rebuild links for wildcards have never stopped being useful.

Minutemen are garbage though, yes. USARF competes badly if they aren't able to play at uncapped combat groups regardless of whether the game is 300 or 400 points. They're a faction that needed a total overhaul for N4 and never received one, just got puzzling nerfs like the Blackjack going up in points cost. Hac Tao went down in points but the Crapjack apparently so good it needed to go up by 2 points.

 

MRRF are even worse with this, they actually couldn't fill 300pts with a Limited Insertion list back in N3 unless you took only the most expensive troops without regard for synergy and they haven't gotten any more elite during N4 yet (Paracommandos, one of the faction's top shooters, actually got cheaper and less capable to better support Kosmoflot, though at least they got a "Molotok" out of the deal).

Honestly I've started putting Fusiliers back into my lists lately when I realised that they're only a few percentage points worse at shooting than troops five times their price against 90% of targets. I even took a Fusilier MSR solo to a casual game a while back as a backup gunner and late-game ARO, worked excellently to deny almost the entire roof layer of the board to my opponent as they didn't have any hard ARO capable of handling it if it ever stood up in active turn. Don't know if it's just a quirk of the local meta (or my opponents seeing "NCA" on the tournament bracket), but long-range shooting is almost extinct around here in favour of short-range board control, which is a boon for the humble Support Weapon Line Trooper who won't often have to deal with the likes of a Swiss Guard HMG anymore.

 

No it does not and it does also not work at 40 models that were some really game breaking lists taken to tournaments, 20 models is the top end of balancing between breaking apart and barely holding together.

 

You make no sense what so ever. Wtf are you responding to?

 

I don't actually think this is true. Even outside of things like the Dylami Panzerfaust or very wide access to strong ammo types on CC models, this is basically only true of ARM 8+ main Battle Tags. Anything with a flamethrower presents an serious threat to Heavy Infantry, and they're not exactly enjoying taking fire from linked template weapons.

You can do that right now, it doesn't actually work very well. Even IA, which is clearly very (somewhat?) carefully designed around the concept doesn't seem to be setting the world on fight right now, and no one else has the extensive access to non-TAG TacAware that making that concept works requires.

And that's just being ~5 orders down,

Someone was saying that the game stays playable at 30 models, because the forced reduction in per-trooper cost makes them simpler. Which might be true in an annoying technical sense that the game is playable, but it gets worse because allowing more troopers (and orders) devolves into dude spam with the same underpriced templatemongers which a already an issue at 300 points/15 orders.

 

"Someone"? My dude.
Psystorm doesn't make sense because he sets up a strawman to make the same argument I did but in hyperbole. Usually when you strawman someone you're trying to make a different point.

Guardian: 25+ unit lists must take a lot of time.
Me in response to Guardian: 20-30 unit lists aren't all that slow, but it does break game balance a lot.
Psystorm in response to me: You're wrong because 40 model lists break game balance a lot.

 

From the few games I played in N3 vs a 25-30 troopers list, my one-word review would be: "interminable".

This is one of my favourite changes from N3, please for the love of god, no return to highlander/gaki/daylami spam.

 

I respond to you, you say Infinity works fine at 30 models, it does not, it never worked fine and never will be, the irregular impetuous swarm was a problem from first edition and has never ceased to be a problem, nor it will be, and yes, there have been playtesters who did brought 40 model lists to big tournaments to showcase the issue.

Yes, in theory a fine tuned list specifically designed to go against such a swarm can have reasonable hopes of fighting it, but for a tournament environment environment it means wasting a slot for an overspecialized possible threat that most do not expect.

Yes, as you said the swarm lists are not adding complexity to the game play since most will have simple troops, as long as you have nailed down how impetuous works you can play relatively fast, this is not what breaks down the game mechanisms, or balance, its the volume of ARO and the volume of orders available (more so if some inspiring leadership LT is involved) and the fact a normal list cannot kill enouph models per turn to matter.

As I said at 20 models is were the literal break point is, 20 models is enouph to create lists that are really difficult to defeat, more so if combined with camo spam, 18 models is enouph to bring enough bodies to the table that if your opponent does not inflict major losses you have enouph orders to not feel the impact of casualties, as long as the key elements remain untouched.

For me 15 models is a reasonable limit that allows the game to work and the restrictions allow for more complex list building.

 

Please take the time to read the following statement.

infinity has a lot of highly optimised very low-cost units and those will reign supreme, and simply spreading your capabilities over several bodies means it's a lot more difficult to knee-cap a list in a single order, not to mention that factions are unevenly designed in this type of unit because you're not meant to skimp on the heroic super humanoids.​

You didn't ask for me to elaborate on it, even though you clearly should have, so let me do that.
A list that mechanically plays fast for both active and reactive player is not the same as saying that list is balanced and fair. I can say this with confidence because I like to test unusual list builds and I have tried a bunch, meaning I have some comparisons I can make. Lists with a lot of models tend to be fairly reliable because they can tank hits well and the reliable nature of the low cost units. When a list archetype is favoured in an otherwise even matchup there is a problem.

I'd suggest that if you want to break the game and have a bad time the following styles are worse, and can be accomplished without ITS Extras;
Tonnes of orders in a pain train. This is a weak archetype that is slow due to the sheer number of minis that need to be moved. Unless you get the list dismantled, 'cause it can't really deal with casualties.
Tonnes of camouflage markers. This is a balanced archetype in terms of who is likely to win, but it plays horrendously sluggish and is almost impossible to keep track of what is what for either player. It is not fun.

Now stop trolling. Please.

 

First and foremost I do not see why and how I can be considered to be trolling, in that I will ask you to elaborate.

Secondly, why should I know I should be asking you to elaborate, if you think your post is not developed enouph and needs further elaboration, then by all means elaborate further, it is not for me to know I should have asked you to do so.

I read this:

And I responded to this, you say Infinity works at 20-30 models and at the basic level it does not work, I know because it has been tested again and again in all editions except N4, I am not aware of any play with "horde" armies in N4, I think I explained adequately why it does not work in the initial reply and the second reply.

If I should interpret that the first statement is only true if a lot of units get fixed in order for this to work, I am sorry this is not what I read, regardless we have tested "hordes" lists with Keisotsu and Fusiliers and the results were not that dissimilar weight of dice has a force that is difficult to handle, and even though now critical do not auto wound there is only one unit that can take advantage of it.

I think we all agree on that.

As you said this is not a serious problem in the gameplay or game balance.

I will agree it is almost impossible to keep track of what is what and several FAQ in N3 and iirc some in N4 have been devoted to the issues camouflage spam creates and I will agree that usually it is not a fun gameplay experience for most players, yes sensors are a solution of shorts, but not many appreciate the experience of facing a table of camouflage markers.

I think there was a common joke in N3 that Ariadna could make a list that could essentially throw camouflage markers over the table and work.

 

You may have come to a different conclusion than I did. If your playtesting yielded that 25-ish units results in a game that takes significantly longer than other "abnormal" list designs then that's all fine and well. However, you seem to take a massive issue with that this is even a possibility, and you seem to focus entirely on the game balance aspect as justification for why this is impossible.

I do not think those are two qualities that share axis at all. The game can run smoothly and still be horribly balanced, just like it can be perfectly well balanced and run really sluggishly.

No, not at all.

What that is saying is that the games run surprisingly fast, but that Infinity is terribly balanced at higher unit count.

Not actually what I wrote, either, but never mind...

I don't agree N4 did anything to address camo spam at all. I think that what we consider to be spammy has changed and I think what we consider problematic has also changed. It's essentially stopped being the problem and started being the solution.

Still, when you almost run out of both letters and numbers to mark your S2 camo, that's still spammy as hell.

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And all this, I think, is kind of missing the interesting quirk of the Infinity system; that number of units isn't the big scaling factor for how long games take - it is primarily abilities and decisions that does that. Number of units can contribute to that.

 

I see, I think we kind of not speaking to each other, Spam lists can be really fast to play, I never challenged that, what I said is they break the game system, the rules are not supporting such huge amount of models, a typical list cannot kill enouph to make a dent and cannot survive the overwhelming amount of ARO it will face.

I did not say it will be slow to play, I said it breaks the game system, and here is I think the different perspective, you worry if the game will technically be playable and if it can be played fast, it will, My focus is if the game will be playable as a game engine, and it is not.

It is more or less the same as playing Infinity with 1/5th of the terrain required, it can be done, the system does not support it.

And no the camo spam has never been addressed what I said the FAQ dealt with issues the camo spam lists created for example making the camo spam player declare in what group each camo token belongs to.

 

The extra effort required to play a spam list quickly is also part of how they break the game. They were outside of what was wanted for Infinity, so they’re gone.

 

I think a more serious offender here are synchs and controls in that case. Though reducing spam incentives is a good goal for a skirmish game, they have some AVA pruning to do to achieve that, though.

 

I guess what they did to the Bulleteer wasn't enough. Their out-of-touch nerfs weren't sufficiently insulting, CB had to twist the knife and rub salt in the wound. RIP Peacemakers.



Hilarious.

 

Or, and stay with me for a radical and rather out-of-the-box thought, you could actually play with the updates and form an opinion on them with, you know, actual reps under your belt with them. Crazy, isn't it?

 

Yes, it is crazy. I don't need to play with the update to predict this forgone conclusion. Nothing changed other than a 20% cost increase. Now you just have to find an extra 5pts, if you want to take a Peacemaker.

Please tell me how that is not exclusively a nerf, but only after you've played some games with the update first.

 

As someone who has been playing PanOceania for years and years, it's kinda getting tiresome to be constantly be dunked on. We're not allowed to have smoke. We're not allowed to maintain fire superiority. On the flipside, Nomads get their REMs buffed with a DTW, our REMs get nerfed with a points upgrade. They get to break their faction identity constantly. It's really telling that there seems to be no thread on the forums talking excitedly about Pan O reinforcements, or additions to our rosters. We're a faction for Warhammer 40k refugees, and Black Templar fetishists.

Wyrd Games recently released an errata for their game, Malifaux, and as a prelude, they took the time to explain "This is why we are nerfing this. This is why we are buffing this". It'd be nice if CB could at least tell us why they're making these changes, instead of leaving us to guess, speculate and ferment in bitterness.